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jact
12-08-2006, 07:42 PM
I've been pondering this for a very long time now, it seems with sponsors giving more and doing more for affiliates that it's setting the expectations higher and higher. There have been a lot of people who went out on their own and skipped the affiliate model and have cashed in by creating their own in house traffic strategies.

It seems to me that the money, time, effort invested in affiliates could easily afford a smart webmaster or company to completely eliminate the need for affiliates.

What do you think? Do you think the days of the affiliate are numbered, or will people continue to cater to the new impossible expectations set by program's needs to constantly one-up what the other guy is doing?

XxXotic
12-08-2006, 07:45 PM
people will always be too lazy to do it all themselves so there will always be affiliates

SirMoby
12-08-2006, 07:48 PM
Why not do both?

jact
12-08-2006, 07:51 PM
people will always be too lazy to do it all themselves so there will always be affiliates

But my question is, will programs always need affiliates? Will we reach a critical mass where the affiliate model just goes away?

jact
12-08-2006, 07:53 PM
Why not do both?

I could list a dozen reasons to continue with the affiliate model, and I could list a dozen reasons why to move away from it. As for doing both, a lot of companies are doing it, but there's going to be a point where they realize that their internal efforts are more profitable then the external (affiliates) efforts and their upkeep.

Lee2
12-08-2006, 08:02 PM
Thing is, if your company moves away from it there will always be another ready to step in.

ivo68
12-08-2006, 08:03 PM
As long as affiliates bring money the programs will use them. I don't see why a program would stop using affiliates just because something elese brings more money. As SirMoby said - Why not do both? Why not use all sources of income?

Mr. Blue
12-08-2006, 08:06 PM
The affiliate model will be around forever as some programs really do know how to use and I do mean USE their affiliates to bring in a lot of traffic with very little output of money.

Smaller programs though that have a few sites in their portfolio, etc, it would probably be easier and more cost effective for them to just forget about courting affiliates and coming up with their own in house traffic.

Fluid
12-08-2006, 09:03 PM
I think the open affiliate days are near done.
We have too many djroof's sucking up "free tools" that cost affiliate programs a lot of money, and then sending 200 hits a month and one sale lifetime. Pretty soon program owners are going to notice how much that one sale ended up costing and cut these guys loose.

If I were going to open a program, it would be a "closed" program. Only webmasters I know can send traffic would be approached, and no affiliate manager, I'd want to be able to speak to all my resellers personally.

I think you'll see more webmasters pooling together to open smaller programs and promote them from within soon.

born2blog
12-08-2006, 09:05 PM
people will always be too lazy to do it all themselves so there will always be affiliates

that is only speaking for a certain percentage of webmasters though, not everyone in this industry is lazy.

PMC
12-08-2006, 09:28 PM
i know a few peeps running own private programs and they seem alot happier doing that.

Mr. Blue
12-08-2006, 11:23 PM
I think the open affiliate days are near done.
We have too many djroof's sucking up "free tools" that cost affiliate programs a lot of money, and then sending 200 hits a month and one sale lifetime. Pretty soon program owners are going to notice how much that one sale ended up costing and cut these guys loose.

There's many programs that make a good amount of money off the "djroof" type webmasters and there's a methodology behind using noobie webmasters or unexperienced webmasters for traffic that you almost will never have to payout on.

Those free tools aren't that expensive when you factor in you'll almost never have to payout for the sales they generate and you can use it for 1000's of affiliates. So let's say little Ishkabibble affiliate signs up for a program, the program offers free content, fhg, a high minimum payout on a revshare program, etc. Let's say that he does send those 200 hits a month, makes a sale every 6 months, etc.

Will that Ishkabibble ever reach the minimum payout? He might, but I'm pretty sure he won't. There's one adult program that almost has a cult like following of noobies and if you carefully study how they use them it's nothing short of amazing.

Fluid
12-08-2006, 11:44 PM
There's many programs that make a good amount of money off the "djroof" type webmasters and there's a methodology behind using noobie webmasters or unexperienced webmasters for traffic that you almost will never have to payout on.

Those free tools aren't that expensive when you factor in you'll almost never have to payout for the sales they generate and you can use it for 1000's of affiliates. So let's say little Ishkabibble affiliate signs up for a program, the program offers free content, fhg, a high minimum payout on a revshare program, etc. Let's say that he does send those 200 hits a month, makes a sale every 6 months, etc.

Will that Ishkabibble ever reach the minimum payout? He might, but I'm pretty sure he won't. There's one adult program that almost has a cult like following of noobies and if you carefully study how they use them it's nothing short of amazing.

That only works to a certain point...then your oversaturated, your sales ratios start sliding and eventually webmaster move onto a fresher site and the site goes stale. The quick cheap fix is to build another tour on another domain and re-use the backend, but that's still expensive and time consuming, when you figure out the time it takes to beta a site, the design, new banners, FHG's et et...

Even when you figure in those people that never make the minimum, I'm still hearing figures like 10% of the webmasters are bringing in 90% of the site's profits.

Mr. Blue
12-09-2006, 12:34 AM
That only works to a certain point...then your oversaturated, your sales ratios start sliding and eventually webmaster move onto a fresher site and the site goes stale. The quick cheap fix is to build another tour on another domain and re-use the backend, but that's still expensive and time consuming, when you figure out the time it takes to beta a site, the design, new banners, FHG's et et...

Even when you figure in those people that never make the minimum, I'm still hearing figures like 10% of the webmasters are bringing in 90% of the site's profits.

Sites become saturated regardless of who's pushing traffic to it, whether it's the 10% pros or the 90% of noobies or the in house traffic guys. The cost of launching new sites, having new tours, constantly adding new content is one that you have to factor in with starting up a program.

Also, you miss the way some programs can manipulate their noobie webmasters...the ratio starts sucking because of saturation, do you tell the affiliates? Hell no, you blame the traffic source, say tgp traffic is dirty traffic...go build blogs...by the time the blogs prove unproductive with the saturated site they're stuck sending that traffic to the program because they did all the entries with sponsor content. Noobies don't change sponsors like experienced webmasters do...many will try to get that minimum amount regardless of how much traffic they have to throw at it. So, there's benefits in courting a noobie webmaster and a few programs do really well by following this method.

Logic dictates, if it wasn't making them money, they'd stop doing it...the big programs continue to court anyone with an adult domain because there's money to be made there...if there wasn't, they wouldn't do it.

Mr. Goat
12-09-2006, 01:54 AM
Tis better to make 1$ from 100 people then 100$ from 1 person!

the Shemp
12-09-2006, 04:10 AM
I've been pondering this for a very long time now, it seems with sponsors giving more and doing more for affiliates that it's setting the expectations higher and higher. There have been a lot of people who went out on their own and skipped the affiliate model and have cashed in by creating their own in house traffic strategies.

It seems to me that the money, time, effort invested in affiliates could easily afford a smart webmaster or company to completely eliminate the need for affiliates.

What do you think? Do you think the days of the affiliate are numbered, or will people continue to cater to the new impossible expectations set by program's needs to constantly one-up what the other guy is doing?

i never could understand why sponsors allow affiliates to use the content as trade bait...hotlinking giant thumbs to other tgps/mgps to other sites in the hope that they get another CJ hit back...

rockhard8
12-09-2006, 04:12 AM
Tis better to make 1$ from 100 people then 100$ from 1 person!
I think that's the smartest thing I ever heard you say bro :)

Paul Markham
12-09-2006, 05:35 AM
i know a few peeps running own private programs and they seem alot happier doing that.
I sell to a few of those peeps as well. ;)

The problem today is some affiliates expect the earth and the moon, that a new program simply can't afford.

Affiliates will stay and always be around. Some will make serious money and some will not. What I think might happen is a very clear two tier system. The cost of supporting the dead weight will soon get to a level where it's not worth it. And the dead weight will be unloaded.

MR Blue, they are expensive to a new program or to give to affiliates that don't send traffic. My biggest burner of BW on the FHGs is costing me money in that he sends very little traffic and NO sign ups. Others use the FHGs and send less traffic and more sign ups. Maybe the tools are not expensive, he is. And he's about to get an email from me.

jact
12-09-2006, 07:10 AM
Tis better to make 1$ from 100 people then 100$ from 1 person!

Factor in the costs of making that $1 from 100 people vs $100 from 1 person and you'll realize that it isn't a dollar at all.

Mr. Blue
12-09-2006, 07:30 AM
MR Blue, they are expensive to a new program or to give to affiliates that don't send traffic. My biggest burner of BW on the FHGs is costing me money in that he sends very little traffic and NO sign ups. Others use the FHGs and send less traffic and more sign ups. Maybe the tools are not expensive, he is. And he's about to get an email from me.

As I stated in my first post:



Smaller programs though that have a few sites in their portfolio, etc, it would probably be easier and more cost effective for them to just forget about courting affiliates and coming up with their own in house traffic.

Yes, smaller programs it would probably be more cost effective for them to avoid going after affiliates initially. However, what is right for a small program may not be right for a larger program. There's a number of programs out there that do very very well by getting as many affiliates of all skill levels pushing traffic to them.

There's no black and white answer to fit all programs. For Paul Markham Teens you'd probably do better just with in house traffic...for DirtyDeesDollars, yeah, it's probably wiser for me to focus more on in house traffic (I'm working on that now)...A program like Bangbros, NastyDollars, TopBucks, Twistys, MP, etc, etc, etc, just have a different business model.

It's like comparing a Mom and Pop Grocery store to a Walmart, lol. What works for walmart just wouldn't work for a smaller operation. You mention the cost of bandwidth, that is a problem for a smaller operation, but a larger operation is buying bandwidth in such bulk that the cost per unit goes way down and becomes more cost effective for them to offer those types of tools.

So bottomline, you need to come up with a business plan and find the most cost effective way to run your business.

Fluid
12-09-2006, 11:24 AM
Logic dictates, if it wasn't making them money, they'd stop doing it...the big programs continue to court anyone with an adult domain because there's money to be made there...if there wasn't, they wouldn't do it.


Actually that has nothing to do with it anymore. Once you start, you can't afford to quit. It's like getting a booth at internext...you miss one year and rumours start floating that you're insolvent and webmasters start sending traffic elsewhere.

Mr. Goat
12-09-2006, 12:53 PM
Factor in the costs of making that $1 from 100 people vs $100 from 1 person and you'll realize that it isn't a dollar at all.

The point is simple. Its better to have as many possibly income sources then one. You spend money and time to please the 100 sending you traffic but then atlest you get a return for all (or most of them) but then you say you focus on just yourself and your own sites... what happens when you server takes a dive you lose everything or your hacked etc etc and just like that all your traffic and work is gone.. its possible, it can happen. SO with say 100 affiliates that happens to one of them well guess what you still got 99 more and its much easier to replace that 1 dollar then it is 100.

There are many pros and cons to having affiliates to promote your programs but im sure 99% will agree it can be a pain but its worth it to have your affiliates.

Fluid
12-09-2006, 01:07 PM
The point is simple. Its better to have as many possibly income sources then one. You spend money and time to please the 100 sending you traffic but then atlest you get a return for all (or most of them) but then you say you focus on just yourself and your own sites... what happens when you server takes a dive you lose everything or your hacked etc etc and just like that all your traffic and work is gone.. its possible, it can happen. SO with say 100 affiliates that happens to one of them well guess what you still got 99 more and its much easier to replace that 1 dollar then it is 100.

There are many pros and cons to having affiliates to promote your programs but im sure 99% will agree it can be a pain but its worth it to have your affiliates.

you could still spread yourself out, not too much on any one server, redundant backups et. Companies do that now, they'd just have to expand that plan to cover their in house promotional material.

PurrsianPussyKat
12-09-2006, 01:45 PM
Affiliates are like having an army of employees.

There is always going to be a few that make more then the rest, but you're also going to have the newbie who hits on a new idea and his traffic starts flowing and the sales begin to rack up. Just because someone is new, doesn't illiminate them from the money making game. There are tons of people who get into the buisness and start raking in the money in no time.

So affiliate tools cost money... without affiliates, where would the traffic come from? Are you going to hire 100 employees to build pages and get links in the search engines? Are you going to advertise on every large traffic source you can find?
No matter what, you are going to have to spend money to make money and the affiliate model makes it easier. You build fhg, throw up some fpa/hpa's and a bit of content and 100's of people are putting up your links for free in the hopes that they'll make some money. They are the ones paying for the advertising and you just sit back and watch the sales roll in with minimal risk. Yeah, you're going to have to deal with the dumbass support issue. But lets face it, if you walk into a store and try to pay with a $2 bill, they are going to call the manager over because they aren't sure it's real money. Stupidity is everywhere in life.

Fluid
12-09-2006, 01:54 PM
Affiliates are like having an army of employees.

There is always going to be a few that make more then the rest, but you're also going to have the newbie who hits on a new idea and his traffic starts flowing and the sales begin to rack up. Just because someone is new, doesn't illiminate them from the money making game. There are tons of people who get into the buisness and start raking in the money in no time.

So affiliate tools cost money... without affiliates, where would the traffic come from? Are you going to hire 100 employees to build pages and get links in the search engines? Are you going to advertise on every large traffic source you can find?
No matter what, you are going to have to spend money to make money and the affiliate model makes it easier. You build fhg, throw up some fpa/hpa's and a bit of content and 100's of people are putting up your links for free in the hopes that they'll make some money. They are the ones paying for the advertising and you just sit back and watch the sales roll in with minimal risk. Yeah, you're going to have to deal with the dumbass support issue. But lets face it, if you walk into a store and try to pay with a $2 bill, they are going to call the manager over because they aren't sure it's real money. Stupidity is everywhere in life.

I agree with some parts of this, but....
Most people that run programs open them to have a place to send their own traffic. If they stayed with that business model, they would likely keep just as much money as if they expanded. More sales come with more overhead. Bandwidth, content, affiliate managers and reps (those guys make pretty good money).
This turns it into a constant hunt for traffic, hence sponsors "special" days, skimming et et to make ends meet.

I think I'd rather save myself a fortune on rolaids, affiliates and staff, and stay small.

MP
12-09-2006, 01:57 PM
I don't know much, lol, but like the TGP game once the Genie is out of the bottle it's not going back.

Both models work and both are viable, so both will never go away.

PurrsianPussyKat
12-09-2006, 02:18 PM
This turns it into a constant hunt for traffic, hence sponsors "special" days, skimming et et to make ends meet.

I think I'd rather save myself a fortune on rolaids, affiliates and staff, and stay small.

Companies do bonus days to attract new affiliates, it's not because they are going broke.. it's just to increase the net in the ocean.

If all you want, is a couple more uniques, you buy a banner somewhere. You fork out the cash and hope for the best. The affiliate model puts the risk on them. You just watch the sales pile up, without having to write the check for the spot.

jact
12-09-2006, 03:36 PM
Companies do bonus days to attract new affiliates, it's not because they are going broke.. it's just to increase the net in the ocean.

If all you want, is a couple more uniques, you buy a banner somewhere. You fork out the cash and hope for the best. The affiliate model puts the risk on them. You just watch the sales pile up, without having to write the check for the spot.

You're over simplifying the cost to an affiliate program to operate. Depending on the scale of the operation, it can cost tens of thousands of dollars a month to do the "simple" tasks outlined above, just to hope that enough affiliates will throw shit at a wall and have it stick.

Then again, what do I know about costs of an affiliate program. :hello:

PurrsianPussyKat
12-09-2006, 03:44 PM
You're right. But if you don't have $10k a month to spend on tools, don't.

Lots of little programs have minimal tools and still make money.
They come out with a couple sites with X number of sets, give some to affiliates, make a bunch of FHG/banners/fpa etc and just let it make money every month.

It makes no sense to spend more money then you have just hoping to turn it around. You have to budget and offer what you can afford to.

Fluid
12-09-2006, 03:55 PM
Companies do bonus days to attract new affiliates, it's not because they are going broke.. it's just to increase the net in the ocean.

If all you want, is a couple more uniques, you buy a banner somewhere. You fork out the cash and hope for the best. The affiliate model puts the risk on them. You just watch the sales pile up, without having to write the check for the spot.

:lol1:

that was quite funny

jact
12-09-2006, 03:56 PM
You're right. But if you don't have $10k a month to spend on tools, don't.

Lots of little programs have minimal tools and still make money.
They come out with a couple sites with X number of sets, give some to affiliates, make a bunch of FHG/banners/fpa etc and just let it make money every month.

It makes no sense to spend more money then you have just hoping to turn it around. You have to budget and offer what you can afford to.

See, therein lies the problem, if you want to be a medium to large scale program, you need to compete on the level at which the bar has been set by the other people in that class. If you're happy being a small program, less can truly be more.

I think in future years, we'll see more and more programs go invite only/private and focus more on internal traffic sources and the affiliates that they do have, they'll work closely with them to ensure that both parties are making the most money.

This massive saturation of the market has to come to a boiling point some day. Programs paying out $30 PPS can't afford to be spending $25 to get the sale unless they retain like crazy.

Perhaps I should have phrased it, "is the open affiliate model still worth it?" instead.

jact
12-09-2006, 03:58 PM
Companies do bonus days to attract new affiliates, it's not because they are going broke.. it's just to increase the net in the ocean.

If all you want, is a couple more uniques, you buy a banner somewhere. You fork out the cash and hope for the best. The affiliate model puts the risk on them. You just watch the sales pile up, without having to write the check for the spot.

By the way, if all that was required on the part of the affiliate program was to sit back, then NATS, Executive Stats, MPA3, etc would not have extensive fraud controls and detection for affiliate fraud.

Depending on the size of a program, this can literally be a full time job for someone monitoring affiliate fraud.

Not to mention ongoing software development/licensing costs as new methods are available to combat against fraud.

People think just because a credit card processor scrubs means that the affiliate program is safe, sure, it may be safe(r) from the surfer trying to commit fraud, but affiliates can be ruthless and create a very large volume of fraud that isn't checked for by a lot of processors.

jact
12-09-2006, 04:02 PM
i never could understand why sponsors allow affiliates to use the content as trade bait...hotlinking giant thumbs to other tgps/mgps to other sites in the hope that they get another CJ hit back...

This is an area that truly concerns me, if someone is going to use our content, I'm not sure I want to allow there to be trades that skim a percentage of the traffic that is owed to under the license for the image.

On the other hand, how can one avoid this and still compete against every Tom, Dick and Harry with an affiliate program who throws content everywhere.

Fluid
12-09-2006, 04:05 PM
This is an area that truly concerns me, if someone is going to use our content, I'm not sure I want to allow there to be trades that skim a percentage of the traffic that is owed to under the license for the image.

On the other hand, how can one avoid this and still compete against every Tom, Dick and Harry with an affiliate program who throws content everywhere.

jeanie's out of the bottle I'm afraid. In a word, you can't. If you started to enforce your license then you'd basically be restricting the program to search engine traffic only

jact
12-09-2006, 04:07 PM
jeanie's out of the bottle I'm afraid. In a word, you can't. If you started to enforce your license then you'd basically be restricting the program to search engine traffic only

I know, it's troubling, the bar has been set no matter where I like it.

I'm already having to play in a non-level playing field, as we won't be giving any hardcore material for promotion.

Fluid
12-09-2006, 04:08 PM
By the way, if all that was required on the part of the affiliate program was to sit back, then NATS, Executive Stats, MPA3, etc would not have extensive fraud controls and detection for affiliate fraud.

Depending on the size of a program, this can literally be a full time job for someone monitoring affiliate fraud.

Not to mention ongoing software development/licensing costs as new methods are available to combat against fraud.

People think just because a credit card processor scrubs means that the affiliate program is safe, sure, it may be safe(r) from the surfer trying to commit fraud, but affiliates can be ruthless and create a very large volume of fraud that isn't checked for by a lot of processors.


not to mention, watching chargebacks that can come from that fraud. Cross that magic 3% for long, and the rest of the conversations moot, you won't have a merchant account.

PurrsianPussyKat
12-09-2006, 04:08 PM
See, therein lies the problem, if you want to be a medium to large scale program, you need to compete on the level at which the bar has been set by the other people in that class. If you're happy being a small program, less can truly be more.


Well, you can always start small and grow.
Not everyone is huge right out of the gate.

If you have the money to throw around, then use it.
But if you have a bottom in your well of money, you have to budget.

I don't know the specifics of what you have going on obviously, so I'm just making generalizations. Not everyone successful starts out at the top is all I'm really saying.

jact
12-09-2006, 04:09 PM
not to mention, watching chargebacks that can come from that fraud. Cross that magic 3% for long, and the rest of the conversations moot, you won't have a merchant account.
Or ever have one again, I'm afraid. That's a very scary scenario.

Fluid
12-09-2006, 04:10 PM
I know, it's troubling, the bar has been set no matter where I like it.

I'm already having to play in a non-level playing field, as we won't be giving any hardcore material for promotion.

It's sad when you find yourself hoping that 2257 would level that off a little. At least for onshore companies :(

Even then, that wouldn't last for long. Even Tia and I are going to offshore banking and incorporation early next year. Not for the 2257 aspect, but purely for tax minimization

jact
12-09-2006, 04:10 PM
Well, you can always start small and grow.
Not everyone is huge right out of the gate.

If you have the money to throw around, then use it.
But if you have a bottom in your well of money, you have to budget.

I don't know the specifics of what you have going on obviously, so I'm just making generalizations. Not everyone successful starts out at the top is all I'm really saying.

You should know by now with my personality type, I don't like to do things small. :lol1:

Actually, come to think of it when we reach our beta stage sometime in January, I'd like to invite you to have a look over what we're putting together. I know you'd be brutally honest and tell me I'm an idiot if you thought it.

jact
12-09-2006, 04:13 PM
It's sad when you find yourself hoping that 2257 would level that off a little. At least for onshore companies :(

Even then, that wouldn't last for long. Even Tia and I are going to offshore banking and incorporation early next year. Not for the 2257 aspect, but purely for tax minimization

Actually, our concerns are partially based on 2257 (We do have a system planned out -- Which we don't plan to use) that would cover ours and our affiliate's butt in that regard; We're more concerned with COPA or any other resurrection of the law that may come into being in the future. You can't take back what's out there once it's out there and it would make a COPA type law impossible to obey. It's a sad reality when you have to make business decisions based on a law that isn't signed, but it helps everyone sleep at night and I fully support it.

Fluid
12-09-2006, 04:14 PM
Well, you can always start small and grow.
Not everyone is huge right out of the gate.

If you have the money to throw around, then use it.
But if you have a bottom in your well of money, you have to budget.


Problem with that idea is, no matter how deep your pockets, you still have to see a positive ROI, or there's no point in doing it.
Now what we have going in the industry right now, it people scraping by with lower ROI and a bit deeper reserves setting the bar ever higher. You can only inflate your costs for so long before you have to pass them along to the consumer, or lower your expenses. Adult companies don't really do mass layoffs like an auto maker does in a down market, they resort to the skim instead it seems.

PurrsianPussyKat
12-09-2006, 04:22 PM
You should know by now with my personality type, I don't like to do things small. :lol1:

Actually, come to think of it when we reach our beta stage sometime in January, I'd like to invite you to have a look over what we're putting together. I know you'd be brutally honest and tell me I'm an idiot if you thought it.

LOL
Guess I'm just more practical. ;)
If all you have is 10 apples, no amount of moving them around is going to make it more then 10. You have to maximize what you have.

I see people start programs all the time. Some work, some don't. Small programs seem to work best when the program owner works hard at making it successful. They do all the work they can themselves and maximize profits. Obviously later down the road, you can look to hire people to do all the stuff you hate doing yourself. :D

Lots of programs are spawned from other programs, so they already have more experience and money to play with. Nothing creates buzz like skinning every board, but would that money serve you better somewhere else?

In the end, you need to look at what you have and how best to make it work for you. Don't always compare yourself to others as you'll always be second guessing yourself. Maybe I should have.....

jact
12-09-2006, 04:25 PM
LOL
Guess I'm just more practical. ;)
If all you have is 10 apples, no amount of moving them around is going to make it more then 10. You have to maximize what you have.

I see people start programs all the time. Some work, some don't. Small programs seem to work best when the program owner works hard at making it successful. They do all the work they can themselves and maximize profits. Obviously later down the road, you can look to hire people to do all the stuff you hate doing yourself. :D

Lots of programs are spawned from other programs, so they already have more experience and money to play with. Nothing creates buzz like skinning every board, but would that money serve you better somewhere else?

In the end, you need to look at what you have and how best to make it work for you. Don't always compare yourself to others as you'll always be second guessing yourself. Maybe I should have.....

All very valid points. Some of what we're doing, at least behind the scenes will definitely not compare to anything anyone's currently doing. We're hopeful that it'll make a difference to the affiliates more then the bells and whistles. Mind you, we'll have bells and whistles galore, but I don't want those to be our focus.

PurrsianPussyKat
12-09-2006, 04:32 PM
Problem with that idea is, no matter how deep your pockets, you still have to see a positive ROI, or there's no point in doing it.
Now what we have going in the industry right now, it people scraping by with lower ROI and a bit deeper reserves setting the bar ever higher. You can only inflate your costs for so long before you have to pass them along to the consumer, or lower your expenses. Adult companies don't really do mass layoffs like an auto maker does in a down market, they resort to the skim instead it seems.


Skim has been going on since the 1'st day porn was sold on the internet. ;)

If you can offer a new, unique product, people will buy it and they'll stick around. If all you're planning on doing is pumping out a cookie cutter site full of average content a guy isn't going to renew and may even charge back.

Problem is, people think as long as they take a picture of a naked chick or two people fucking it's going to make them money and it will, but it won't make them the amount of money they are hoping for.

Look at the truly successful sites that are around. They offer something a guy can't get everywhere else. REALLY good content is tough to get every week, so the sites that deliver have loyal members.. look at MP as an example. They get hot models and they have guys renew month after month. It's because you can't get what they offer everywhere else.

If you focus on building a kick ass site first, and affiliate tools later, I think you have a better chance of success.

If I see a site that blows me away, I could care less what tools they offer because I can do it myself. As long as I have some content I'm good to go.

jact
12-09-2006, 04:47 PM
Skim has been going on since the 1'st day porn was sold on the internet. ;)

If you can offer a new, unique product, people will buy it and they'll stick around. If all you're planning on doing is pumping out a cookie cutter site full of average content a guy isn't going to renew and may even charge back.

Problem is, people think as long as they take a picture of a naked chick or two people fucking it's going to make them money and it will, but it won't make them the amount of money they are hoping for.

Look at the truly successful sites that are around. They offer something a guy can't get everywhere else. REALLY good content is tough to get every week, so the sites that deliver have loyal members.. look at MP as an example. They get hot models and they have guys renew month after month. It's because you can't get what they offer everywhere else.

If you focus on building a kick ass site first, and affiliate tools later, I think you have a better chance of success.

If I see a site that blows me away, I could care less what tools they offer because I can do it myself. As long as I have some content I'm good to go.

See, we're lucky on that front. Nobody can rival our database of original exclusive amateur content, we do multiple daily updates and have a great community for the users so it retains very well.

Mr. Blue
12-09-2006, 05:25 PM
Affiliates are like having an army of employees.

There is always going to be a few that make more then the rest, but you're also going to have the newbie who hits on a new idea and his traffic starts flowing and the sales begin to rack up. Just because someone is new, doesn't illiminate them from the money making game. There are tons of people who get into the buisness and start raking in the money in no time.

So affiliate tools cost money... without affiliates, where would the traffic come from? Are you going to hire 100 employees to build pages and get links in the search engines? Are you going to advertise on every large traffic source you can find?
No matter what, you are going to have to spend money to make money and the affiliate model makes it easier. You build fhg, throw up some fpa/hpa's and a bit of content and 100's of people are putting up your links for free in the hopes that they'll make some money. They are the ones paying for the advertising and you just sit back and watch the sales roll in with minimal risk. Yeah, you're going to have to deal with the dumbass support issue. But lets face it, if you walk into a store and try to pay with a $2 bill, they are going to call the manager over because they aren't sure it's real money. Stupidity is everywhere in life.

It's my day off, so I can't be as wordy as I usually am, but very nice post PPK.

Fluid
12-09-2006, 05:26 PM
Skim has been going on since the 1'st day porn was sold on the internet. ;)

If you can offer a new, unique product, people will buy it and they'll stick around. If all you're planning on doing is pumping out a cookie cutter site full of average content a guy isn't going to renew and may even charge back.

Problem is, people think as long as they take a picture of a naked chick or two people fucking it's going to make them money and it will, but it won't make them the amount of money they are hoping for.

Look at the truly successful sites that are around. They offer something a guy can't get everywhere else. REALLY good content is tough to get every week, so the sites that deliver have loyal members.. look at MP as an example. They get hot models and they have guys renew month after month. It's because you can't get what they offer everywhere else.

If you focus on building a kick ass site first, and affiliate tools later, I think you have a better chance of success.

If I see a site that blows me away, I could care less what tools they offer because I can do it myself. As long as I have some content I'm good to go.

that's all true and good, but how does that affect the concept of using hapless affiliates to send traffic? lol

Panky
12-09-2006, 05:42 PM
It's easy for a program to blame things on the affiliates first. "Affiliates are costing us an x amount of money every month and many of them aren't doing squat.".

Why aren't those affiliates doing anything? Does someone contact them and touch base with the affiliate? Is someone qualified to help existing affiliates to improve ratios? Is something not quite right with the tours? How can the program improve to maybe boost some of those affiliates?

I know that every single program that offers an affiliate program, even the invite only model, will have a percentage of dead weight. There's no way to avoid that. The trick is to keep the dead weight percentage low. However, I have joined a lot of sponsors in the past. Some of those programs, I know who my rep is and/or the people behind the scenes actually contact me and touch base on a regular basis, regardless of my status. The majority of my sponsors however, I hear from them once when I join and then receive updates by email and then never hear from them again. Many of them, I have no clue who anyone is, much less remember I even joined the program over time.

Now would an affiliate be more likely to actively push a sponsor who took the time out for the personal touch, even just to say "Hi" and touch base, or one that there is absentee people behind the scenes? The personal touch does go a long way and can be accomplished by any sponsor regardless of it's size.

Now if the sponsor has a lot of affiliates who are considered dead weight, (according to whatever criteria the sponsor feels qualifies as dead weight), and who never respond to any contact what so ever, then the program should drop them and wash their hands of them.

What about gradually growing an affiliate base? Many sponsors out there try and gain as many affiliates as they possbily can, but how many affiliates can the program actually sustain before good affiliates get lost in the mix? How fast can an affiliate program grow before things get out of control for the sponsor? What about if a sponsor gradually grew their affiliate base over time? Nurture the affiliates the program has and then gradually expand with time.

I believe a program should be selective about the affiliates they choose to accept. Just because someone applies, does not mean one has to accept them into the program right away. Have a list of minimum criteria, that is fair and reasonable and not just targeted to one specific group, and then use that as a guide to whether or not the applicant is accepted and on what terms they are accepted. Sponsors bitch all the time about the expense of an affiliate, yet their doors are always open, accepting every Joe Blow who applies.

Communication and the human touch are big factors that many sponsors seriously lack on. Those two factors can make a difference on turning dead weight into worker bees as well as keeping the worker bees active and happy. Sponsors need to step back and realize its not all about the fancy tools and giving affiliates the moon, it's about the personal touch and communication. All the tools in the world won't make a difference if the affiliate forgets they even joined the sponsor in the first place. Even after they joined and worked the program for awhile, if the affiliate isn't converting and no one seems to be around, they will drop the program and move on. If that program took even just one time a month to pop in and contact the affiliate, they could still keep that worker bee and hopefully work with them to improve ratios. If the worker bee still decides to move on, then so be it. At least the program tried to keep them active.

I know existing affiliates can be time consuming and very demanding. However, the sponsor still needs to remain in control. They need to set the rules and they need to stop letting their affiliates dictate the program. Listen to the affiliates and work with the affiliates, but don't let the affiliates take over. There's give and take on both sides and both sides need to respect each other.

Fluid
12-09-2006, 05:44 PM
It's easy for a program to blame things on the affiliates first. "Affiliates are costing us an x amount of money every month and many of them aren't doing squat.".

Why aren't those affiliates doing anything? Does someone contact them and touch base with the affiliate? Is someone qualified to help existing affiliates to improve ratios? Is something not quite right with the tours? How can the program improve to maybe boost some of those affiliates?

I know that every single program that offers an affiliate program, even the invite only model, will have a percentage of dead weight. There's no way to avoid that. The trick is to keep the dead weight percentage low. However, I have joined a lot of sponsors in the past. Some of those programs, I know who my rep is and/or the people behind the scenes actually contact me and touch base on a regular basis, regardless of my status. The majority of my sponsors however, I hear from them once when I join and then receive updates by email and then never hear from them again. Many of them, I have no clue who anyone is, much less remember I even joined the program over time.

Now would an affiliate be more likely to actively push a sponsor who took the time out for the personal touch, even just to say "Hi" and touch base, or one that there is absentee people behind the scenes? The personal touch does go a long way and can be accomplished by any sponsor regardless of it's size.

Now if the sponsor has a lot of affiliates who are considered dead weight, (according to whatever criteria the sponsor feels qualifies as dead weight), and who never respond to any contact what so ever, then the program should drop them and wash their hands of them.

What about gradually growing an affiliate base? Many sponsors out there try and gain as many affiliates as they possbily can, but how many affiliates can the program actually sustain before good affiliates get lost in the mix? How fast can an affiliate program grow before things get out of control for the sponsor? What about if a sponsor gradually grew their affiliate base over time? Nurture the affiliates the program has and then gradually expand with time.

I believe a program should be selective about the affiliates they choose to accept. Just because someone applies, does not mean one has to accept them into the program right away. Have a list of minimum criteria, that is fair and reasonable and not just targeted to one specific group, and then use that as a guide to whether or not the applicant is accepted and on what terms they are accepted. Sponsors bitch all the time about the expense of an affiliate, yet their doors are always open, accepting every Joe Blow who applies.

Communication and the human touch are big factors that many sponsors seriously lack on. Those two factors can make a difference on turning dead weight into worker bees as well as keeping the worker bees active and happy. Sponsors need to step back and realize its not all about the fancy tools and giving affiliates the moon, it's about the personal touch and communication. All the tools in the world won't make a difference if the affiliate forgets they even joined the sponsor in the first place. Even after they joined and worked the program for awhile, if the affiliate isn't converting and no one seems to be around, they will drop the program and move on. If that program took even just one time a month to pop in and contact the affiliate, they could still keep that worker bee and hopefully work with them to improve ratios. If the worker bee still decides to move on, then so be it. At least the program tried to keep them active.

I know existing affiliates can be time consuming and very demanding. However, the sponsor still needs to remain in control. They need to set the rules and they need to stop letting their affiliates dictate the program. Listen to the affiliates and work with the affiliates, but don't let the affiliates take over. There's give and take on both sides and both sides need to respect each other.


so what you're saying is, the program should spend even more money on affiliate support to help educate the dead weight?

Mr. Blue
12-09-2006, 05:47 PM
that's all true and good, but how does that affect the concept of using hapless affiliates to send traffic? lol

You're too narrowly focused on one aspect. There are sponsors that use "hapless" affiliates rather effectively...there's others that choose to be a closed program...etc.

Both can be successful, both have their merits, and both will continue to exist. If something is no longer profitable companies will take steps to correct it...I've carefully studied how some programs use those "hapless" affiliates and how it's an extremely cost effective endeavor for them.

Edit: 50...woj style

Panky
12-09-2006, 05:49 PM
No. Not at all. They just need to spend some time to actually contact people and go from there. Work with those who are willing to work and drop the ones who are not.

Contacting and keeping in touch with affiliates is not a waste of time or money. Even small programs who do not have the budget for employees can still keep in contact with their affiliates. What do programs expect? Affiliates join, they welcome them, give them a boost to get started and then the sponsor is done? Maybe some of that dead weight wouldn't be dead weight if a sponsor took the time to touch base every once in awhile.

jact
12-09-2006, 06:21 PM
No. Not at all. They just need to spend some time to actually contact people and go from there. Work with those who are willing to work and drop the ones who are not.

Contacting and keeping in touch with affiliates is not a waste of time or money. Even small programs who do not have the budget for employees can still keep in contact with their affiliates. What do programs expect? Affiliates join, they welcome them, give them a boost to get started and then the sponsor is done? Maybe some of that dead weight wouldn't be dead weight if a sponsor took the time to touch base every once in awhile.

You've offered some very good points for consideration, thanks for your very well thought out contribution to a thread I thought would die after 2 or 3 replies.

Let's use FlashCash as an example, how would you suggest they keep in contact with their affiliates, considering they have over 5,000 of them? It strikes me as an epic undertaking to say the least.

Fluid
12-09-2006, 06:53 PM
You're too narrowly focused on one aspect. There are sponsors that use "hapless" affiliates rather effectively...there's others that choose to be a closed program...etc.

Both can be successful, both have their merits, and both will continue to exist. If something is no longer profitable companies will take steps to correct it...I've carefully studied how some programs use those "hapless" affiliates and how it's an extremely cost effective endeavor for them.

Edit: 50...woj style

when that aspect is ROI...I don't think you can be to narrow in your concentration.
As far as it being extremely cost effective, since these affiliates are making you no money at all, and using licenses and bandwidth you have to pay for, taking up time of affiliate reps that you have to pay for I don't see how it could be "cost effective"

That's like saying the MX3 is cost effective sitting in my driveway. It doesn't burn any gas, doesn't cost me a cent to drive, but that's cause it doesn't run. In other words, it makes me nothing, takes up space, sits on insurance, and generally uses up resources (the parking space) that could be more effectively used for something that does produce money, like the BMW that gets Cuban Chick to work. Sure if I sold it, it could make me 500 bucks, but if I had rented out that parking spot for the going rate around here when I first parked it there, I'd probably be 3000 richer by now. So in reality, even if I offloaded it, I didn't make 500, I lost 2500.

That's something that most people aren't "clicking" when they read this. If I have 5 affiliate reps, their days are eaten up serving requests of people that in all likelyhood will never make a sale for the program. Even if they only make 10 bucks an hour, that's 400 bucks a day before taxes, insurance et et that they directly cost me. Now had my affiliate reps been servicing a larger client, how much could that larger client have made me? How many other larger clients could I have reached? How much money did I just lose? How cost effective was that? ;)

Now you can come back with an arguement that I should have more affiliate reps, or they should concentrate on bigger fish et et...but we both know, that's how it's SUPPOSED to work, and not how it DOES work.

Panky
12-09-2006, 07:28 PM
That's something that most people aren't "clicking" when they read this. If I have 5 affiliate reps, their days are eaten up serving requests of people that in all likelyhood will never make a sale for the program. Even if they only make 10 bucks an hour, that's 400 bucks a day before taxes, insurance et et that they directly cost me. Now had my affiliate reps been servicing a larger client, how much could that larger client have made me? How many other larger clients could I have reached? How much money did I just lose? How cost effective was that? ;)
How does one know which affiliates are going to be the big fish and/or the most productive? Just because one "big fish" can perform well with one sponsor does not mean he/she will produce favorable results with your company. It's prejudging your affiliates before they have the opportunity to prove themselves. Now if an affiliate has been given adequate time to show some effort and they continue to require large blocks of time from the rep, then an evaluation needs to be done on what exactly to do with that affiliate. The rep is the one who remains in control and can spend their time with each affiliate accordingly. It's real easy to pick out the time wasters and talkers from the ones who actually do want to work and/or can produce results. Each affiliate needs to be dealt with on an individual basis. One can't say they are only going to focus on a particular group because if one does, they don't know if that one group is going to be able to perform up to standards and the company in turn just alienated itself from more potential earners.

Fluid
12-09-2006, 08:18 PM
How does one know which affiliates are going to be the big fish and/or the most productive? Just because one "big fish" can perform well with one sponsor does not mean he/she will produce favorable results with your company. It's prejudging your affiliates before they have the opportunity to prove themselves. Now if an affiliate has been given adequate time to show some effort and they continue to require large blocks of time from the rep, then an evaluation needs to be done on what exactly to do with that affiliate. The rep is the one who remains in control and can spend their time with each affiliate accordingly. It's real easy to pick out the time wasters and talkers from the ones who actually do want to work and/or can produce results. Each affiliate needs to be dealt with on an individual basis. One can't say they are only going to focus on a particular group because if one does, they don't know if that one group is going to be able to perform up to standards and the company in turn just alienated itself from more potential earners.

I really don't think you realize the scale you're talking about.
And, lets be honest, it's not the sponsor programs responsibility to be teaching adult webmasters.
And the plan you've outlined above, is exactly the one that isn't working all that hot currently.

Panky
12-09-2006, 08:27 PM
Let's use FlashCash as an example, how would you suggest they keep in contact with their affiliates, considering they have over 5,000 of them? It strikes me as an epic undertaking to say the least.
In the beginning, yes it does seem like a major undertaking. However, it is time well spent and in the end could produce some very favorable results.

For example, let's say FlashCash has only 5 affiliate reps. A company could divide their affiliates up into groups of 1,000. It's a large number for each rep, but the affiliates will weed themselves out.

FlashCash could look at the accounts and determine which group of affiliates gets assigned to which rep, taking into account the accounts the rep already works with day to day, (their own accounts they personally and actively manage/referred). The most important accounts can be assigned to the most valuable rep and so on down the line. FlashCash would just have to decide how best to divide these 5,000 affiliates up amongst 5 reps.

Now once the affiliates are divided up, each rep is now responsible to go through 1,000 accounts each. The rep looks through each account and contacts each person one by one keeping notes.

There will be accounts that the email does not work, no contact can be made from the url given to join, ICQ goes unanswered and so on.

There will also be those who do respond, but might not be currently active in promoting the program. The rep can speak with the person and encourage them and so on, meanwhile keeping notes of what was discussed.

Now, if the information on someone is invalid and no contact can be made, FlashCash can decide on each individual account to kick them to the curb or keep them.

In a month to 6 weeks time, the affiliate list begins to weed itself down. Even something like a point system or some kind of rating system can be created. Once the truly dead are gone, it becomes a matter of managing those that are active. Those most active, are rated the highest and so on down the line. Then, once a month, the rep can go through and check the status of the accounts and make adjustments accordingly.

For about 6 months to a year, no new affiliates are accepted, private business deals aside. The point is to weed down those 5,000 existing affiliates to a more reasonable and manageable number.

Depending on the rating system created, certain incentives, gimmicks, and things can be created for those semi-active or those who need a kick in the ass to try and boost interest. The company can then keep track of how well a promo to a select group worked, if they choose to implement some kind of promo.

After a year, the company can decide to open to new affiliates to replace the dead, meanwhile placing a limit on the number of new affiliates accepted.



A sponsor needs to figure out what criteria they require for an affiliate to be considered active and then some type of rating system. Purge the dead weight. Don't accept any new affiliates until some house cleaning has been done on the existing affiliate base and the sponsor has a better idea of who is doing what and the actual number of affiliates they are left to work with.

The sponsor can then decide how best to manage the affiliates and what is needed to do so.

5,000 affiliates is a huge number to weed through, but it isn't like it needs to be done in 2 weeks.

During this house cleaning time, a lot of valuable information can be learned. Things like what tools are being used, if any. Suggestions an affiliate may have about the sites, tools, and misc. things. Ask the affiliates questions and keep track of the feedback. Over time, the sponsor will have an idea of which tools are used or not used, the percentage of those using them, and information that can be used to improve the program and possibly save the program some money in the long run.

jact
12-09-2006, 08:33 PM
In the beginning, yes it does seem like a major undertaking. However, it is time well spent and in the end could produce some very favorable results.

For example, let's say FlashCash has only 5 affiliate reps. A company could divide their affiliates up into groups of 1,000. It's a large number for each rep, but the affiliates will weed themselves out.

FlashCash could look at the accounts and determine which group of affiliates gets assigned to which rep, taking into account the accounts the rep already works with day to day, (their own accounts they personally and actively manage/referred). The most important accounts can be assigned to the most valuable rep and so on down the line. FlashCash would just have to decide how best to divide these 5,000 affiliates up amongst 5 reps.

Now once the affiliates are divided up, each rep is now responsible to go through 1,000 accounts each. The rep looks through each account and contacts each person one by one keeping notes.

There will be accounts that the email does not work, no contact can be made from the url given to join, ICQ goes unanswered and so on.

There will also be those who do respond, but might not be currently active in promoting the program. The rep can speak with the person and encourage them and so on, meanwhile keeping notes of what was discussed.

Now, if the information on someone is invalid and no contact can be made, FlashCash can decide on each individual account to kick them to the curb or keep them.

In a month to 6 weeks time, the affiliate list begins to weed itself down. Even something like a point system or some kind of rating system can be created. Once the truly dead are gone, it becomes a matter of managing those that are active. Those most active, are rated the highest and so on down the line. Then, once a month, the rep can go through and check the status of the accounts and make adjustments accordingly.

For about 6 months to a year, no new affiliates are accepted, private business deals aside. The point is to weed down those 5,000 existing affiliates to a more reasonable and manageable number.

Depending on the rating system created, certain incentives, gimmicks, and things can be created for those semi-active or those who need a kick in the ass to try and boost interest. The company can then keep track of how well a promo to a select group worked, if they choose to implement some kind of promo.

After a year, the company can decide to open to new affiliates to replace the dead, meanwhile placing a limit on the number of new affiliates accepted.



A sponsor needs to figure out what criteria they require for an affiliate to be considered active and then some type of rating system. Purge the dead weight. Don't accept any new affiliates until some house cleaning has been done on the existing affiliate base and the sponsor has a better idea of who is doing what and the actual number of affiliates they are left to work with.

The sponsor can then decide how best to manage the affiliates and what is needed to do so.

5,000 affiliates is a huge number to weed through, but it isn't like it needs to be done in 2 weeks.

During this house cleaning time, a lot of valuable information can be learned. Things like what tools are being used, if any. Suggestions an affiliate may have about the sites, tools, and misc. things. Ask the affiliates questions and keep track of the feedback. Over time, the sponsor will have an idea of which tools are used or not used, the percentage of those using them, and information that can be used to improve the program and possibly save the program some money in the long run.

Okay, how does one term an affiliate for being dead weight without pissing off an affiliate?

Some really interesting material in this post, I'm not sure how well it'd translate to real world, but it's a good idea regardless.

Panky
12-09-2006, 08:44 PM
I really don't think you realize the scale you're talking about.
And, lets be honest, it's not the sponsor programs responsibility to be teaching adult webmasters.
And the plan you've outlined above, is exactly the one that isn't working all that hot currently.
The current system doesn't work because there are a lot of affiliates who have no clue what they are doing on top of the fact that the sponsors are giving them everything under the sun without any limits to those who have no clue what they are really doing. Then, the sponsors complain because they spend all this money on their affiliates and the sales aren't up to what they expected.

The sponsors are the ones who are best supposed to know to how to convert their sites. The sponsors are the ones who the affiliate turns to for advice on how to best market a site. Even the big guys and experienced affiliates may not be able to convert a site so well out of the gate, but with a few pointers, might in turn produce quite favorable results.

I am not saying the sponsor needs to hold an affiliates hand and do everything for them. That's what many are doing now and it's clearly not working for some sponsors. But a sponsor should be there to provide a little guidance and push when needed.

The affiliates are the worker bees so it is in a sponsors best interest to work with these affiliates and teach them a little bit here and there to produce better results in the end. Those who are willing to work, will work. Those who aren't interested or just simply talk and waste time without proving themselves, will weed themselves out.

Panky
12-09-2006, 09:00 PM
Okay, how does one term an affiliate for being dead weight without pissing off an affiliate?

Some really interesting material in this post, I'm not sure how well it'd translate to real world, but it's a good idea regardless.

The sponsor needs to look at certain things and place weight on each. For example, things like:
Contact information valid and has a response been received when contacted?
Does the affiliate have an active website(s)?
Is the affiliate sending any traffic? If so, what amount?
Has the affiliate earned sales? If so, how many? Are they still earning sales and/or rebills?

Basically is there any sign of life from the affiliate at all?

Sure a company that purges affiliates it is bound to piss someone off. However, if the affiliate isn't doing squat for the company, is not collecting rebills, or currently sending traffic or sales, cut them loose.

Those sending a sale every 6 months or something like that can be contacted. If nothing improves on the account, tell the affiliate of your intentions and then cut them loose if things still don't improve. Whatever a sponsor chooses to do, it'll piss someone off, but if the affiliate was given a fair chance to work to improve to meet certain criteria and nothing happens, cut them loose.

The truly dead ones, those showing no signs of life, probably aren't even going to notice they've been terminated. Contact the potential dead, if still no signs of life in a reasonable amount of time, then get rid of them.

Mr. Blue
12-10-2006, 12:43 AM
rdv

You're completely focused on one aspect of the equation and you're not looking at the full picture of how a program benefits even from small affiliates that send traffic. So, I'm going to give you a snippet of the full picture and let you fill in the gaps.

First off, affiliate support is not that costly. MP has around 1300+ affilates and their support consists of Kevin and Mailman...both of which do other tasks than just affilate support. More or less, affiliates want the tools, you give it them, and they leave you alone. The MP board is self-sustaining, it gets paid by advertisers, gets moderated by what amounts to volunteers and is also another avenue for affiliate support. Twistys only has Shap and Kevin as affiliate support, they probably have around the same amount of affiliates as MP and both also handle other aspects of the business besides affiliate support. Look at other programs and you'll see that most have barebone affiliate support.

So, that's the first fallacy in your thinking...handling a large pool of affiliates is that costly...it isn't.

Secondly, people keep commenting on the cost of bandwidth for the FHGs, but no one is calculating the benefits of having even small time affiliates pushing traffic. What does even a small time affiliate bring to a program:


Traffic in which they pay for the bandwidth (since you can't submit FHG to tgps, LLs, etc...that bandwidth gets paid by the affiliate)
Design - a small affiliate will design something...it might be ugly, it might be crappy, but still it's taking the time to put html down and it's worth something...something that the program doesn't have to pay for
Small timers do buy accounts through places like Submitpasses. That's another expenditure the sponsor doesn't have to put out
Submitting galleries, etc, etc, still takes time and a program doesn't have to fear any concern regarding multi-submitting because it's a legitmate second individual that's doing the submitting. I do know some programs hire people to submit to tgps...why hire someone when you can get someone to do it for free?
Software, tools, etc...many of those unproductive noobs do spend money on programs like Chameleon, Advanced Submitter, etc, there's another thing a program doesn't have to pay for.


That's just sampling of what even a small affiliate can bring back to a program at little or no cost. An affiliate sends 200 hits a month through a blog he built, he didn't bother you on icq, and he continues to send you traffic until he meets the minimum payout. I'd take an affiliate like that...hell, if a 200 hit a month affiliate contacted me I'd show him all the necessary tutorials he needs to send 100x that amount of traffic...if they use it, great, if they don't I lost all of 1 minute posting links for them.

Still, as I said from the start...different programs follow different paths, there's no right or wrong way as long as you're making money :)

Fluid
12-10-2006, 01:35 AM
You're completely focused on one aspect of the equation and you're not looking at the full picture of how a program benefits even from small affiliates that send traffic. So, I'm going to give you a snippet of the full picture and let you fill in the gaps.

First off, affiliate support is not that costly. MP has around 1300+ affilates and their support consists of Kevin and Mailman...both of which do other tasks than just affilate support. More or less, affiliates want the tools, you give it them, and they leave you alone. The MP board is self-sustaining, it gets paid by advertisers, gets moderated by what amounts to volunteers and is also another avenue for affiliate support. Twistys only has Shap and Kevin as affiliate support, they probably have around the same amount of affiliates as MP and both also handle other aspects of the business besides affiliate support. Look at other programs and you'll see that most have barebone affiliate support.

So, that's the first fallacy in your thinking...handling a large pool of affiliates is that costly...it isn't.

Secondly, people keep commenting on the cost of bandwidth for the FHGs, but no one is calculating the benefits of having even small time affiliates pushing traffic. What does even a small time affiliate bring to a program:


Traffic in which they pay for the bandwidth (since you can't submit FHG to tgps, LLs, etc...that bandwidth gets paid by the affiliate)
Design - a small affiliate will design something...it might be ugly, it might be crappy, but still it's taking the time to put html down and it's worth something...something that the program doesn't have to pay for
Small timers do buy accounts through places like Submitpasses. That's another expenditure the sponsor doesn't have to put out
Submitting galleries, etc, etc, still takes time and a program doesn't have to fear any concern regarding multi-submitting because it's a legitmate second individual that's doing the submitting. I do know some programs hire people to submit to tgps...why hire someone when you can get someone to do it for free?
Software, tools, etc...many of those unproductive noobs do spend money on programs like Chameleon, Advanced Submitter, etc, there's another thing a program doesn't have to pay for.


That's just sampling of what even a small affiliate can bring back to a program at little or no cost. An affiliate sends 200 hits a month through a blog he built, he didn't bother you on icq, and he continues to send you traffic until he meets the minimum payout. I'd take an affiliate like that...hell, if a 200 hit a month affiliate contacted me I'd show him all the necessary tutorials he needs to send 100x that amount of traffic...if they use it, great, if they don't I lost all of 1 minute posting links for them.

Still, as I said from the start...different programs follow different paths, there's no right or wrong way as long as you're making money :)

I can see where this is going.
Lets put a halt to it and set you straight now.
You said they are "cost effective". But you haven't shown me where they bring in revenue, therefore, they cannot be cost effective, no matter how little they actually cost.

Second..both programs you cited are quite small really. They're actually examples of when programs stay small and work, without the affiliate headaches that I've used on the boards. We're talking 5 times the number of affiliates minimum in this convo. And if you don't think that's a big load of work, I can introduce you to about 50 reps that will set you straight.

All the figures I've heard all these years from different programs have stayed the same. 10-20% of the affiliates make 80-90% of the revenue for a program. Logic dictates, if they're not making you money, they are indeed costing you money and are a drain on resources.

Now you can paint a pretty picture about software and designs that they bring, but lets get real. The program owner has zero claim on those. He can't even re-use em. They don't factor in at all. Half the software he likely already owns anyways as part of the design tools for the tour et.

As far as submit passes...very little of those guys at the bottom actually buy them, they can't afford to throw around the money on them.

As far as bandwidth that the newbs host...quite frankly if they don't have serious traffic to send you, does the money they're saving on bandwidth actually add up to anything? Especially if you could get rid of 500 of them not making sales, and reduce your support staff?

Fluid
12-10-2006, 01:46 AM
I'm going to mention one more thing on this, then I'm going to let it go.
Cause quite frankly, I can't see the logic at all in it and I'm not alone.

Lets for a moment bring these affiliates into the real world.
We're going to put them on a factory floor, all doing the same job. All recieved the same training (boards) and some of them are naturally better at the job than others.
20 % of my new work force makes me $80,000 a month for example. 80% of my work force makes me $20,000 per month. Now out of that, there's some that obviously could do more, but most aren't completing anything.

Now, as a business. Do I waste resources training these people multiple times? Providing special equipment for them et et? Bonus days where if they actually manage to do something I'll pay them twice as much? Benifit plans et et?

Or do I shit can them and find more of the ones that have a natural ability for it?


If you can find me a workplace that does the former, I'll show you a government owned office. Otherwise no well run business in the world would piss the money away on unproductive employees.

the Shemp
12-10-2006, 03:06 AM
I'm going to mention one more thing on this, then I'm going to let it go.
Cause quite frankly, I can't see the logic at all in it and I'm not alone.

Lets for a moment bring these affiliates into the real world.
We're going to put them on a factory floor, all doing the same job. All recieved the same training (boards) and some of them are naturally better at the job than others.
20 % of my new work force makes me $80,000 a month for example. 80% of my work force makes me $20,000 per month. Now out of that, there's some that obviously could do more, but most aren't completing anything.

Now, as a business. Do I waste resources training these people multiple times? Providing special equipment for them et et? Bonus days where if they actually manage to do something I'll pay them twice as much? Benifit plans et et?

Or do I shit can them and find more of the ones that have a natural ability for it?


If you can find me a workplace that does the former, I'll show you a government owned office. Otherwise no well run business in the world would piss the money away on unproductive employees.


exactly and this is why you cant call affiliates employees..employees have standards to meet, efficiency..attendance..knowlege..you can kick them in the ass if they take a long break or come in late, you can suspend them if they screw up and terminate their employment for various reasons...

affiliates are free agents, a type of piece worker with no expected goals..if you get a few that can make decent money its a bonus...programs should stop bending over to feed the lowest common denominator...

Paul Markham
12-10-2006, 05:12 AM
So bottomline, you need to come up with a business plan and find the most cost effective way to run your business.
Something I've been telling people for years. Just because the big guys make it work that way, does not make it suitable for those starting up.

Mr. Blue
12-10-2006, 07:52 AM
Lets put a halt to it and set you straight now.

Set me straight? Cute, lol.

My opinion on the topic is on a case by case basis based on the program itself. There's no one fit all solution and I repeated enough in this thread that for each program you have to use a business model that fits.

The topic of this thread didn't specify the size of the program involved and you need to take a more balanced view on the topic because there are more factors than simplifying the topic to fit one scenario perfectly. Just because you only want to talk about "Big" programs...well, that's all well and good, but that's not the parameters set forth in the beginning of this discussion. So, my example of MP and Twistys are perfectly valid.

One size does not fit all...there's advantages and disadvantages with the affiliate model and depending on your company you have to make some careful decisions based on your budget / investment. There are programs that use noobie webmasters rather effectively...if you do a little homework you can find them and also find their methodology in how they use them.

When / if you start your own program you may find that the idealized decisions you formulated in your business plan suddenly alters dramatically as you try to practically apply them.

Now I don't know your experience in running a program. I can only speak from my own experience in running a program and making it profitable in a few months...adapting to find a business model that works for you is often a work in progress based on circumstances.

12clicks
12-10-2006, 01:42 PM
I think you find programs finding other ways to make money besides affiliates. Affiliatres are costly and time consuming. I think the business has reached the point where money is better spent on employees than on affiliates. It doesn't mean money won't continue to be spent but I think the days of catering to the 20 hit a day webmaster who screams on the boards about getting an rss feed to prop up his blog are coming to an end.

jact
12-10-2006, 01:47 PM
I think you find programs finding other ways to make money besides affiliates. Affiliatres are costly and time consuming. I think the business has reached the point where money is better spent on employees than on affiliates. It doesn't mean money won't continue to be spent but I think the days of catering to the 20 hit a day webmaster who screams on the boards about getting an rss feed to prop up his blog are coming to an end.

I find at the shows there's a lot more b2b deals going on that are ways to skirt the affiliate model vs to support it. I know at least in my personal dealings this has been the case in almost every deal presented.

Panky
12-10-2006, 06:00 PM
So basically what you are saying Fluid, is that affiliates are not needed? Affiliates are too expensive. They cost a company way too much money and the ROI just isn't there?

dizmo
12-10-2006, 07:01 PM
Interesting thread...
So affiliates are costly and time consuming, what exactly are affiliates asking for, what am i missing out on here?
And if its costing too much, just ask for some return. "We will do this for you when u reach a certain level of signups..."

Fluid
12-10-2006, 08:04 PM
So basically what you are saying Fluid, is that affiliates are not needed? Affiliates are too expensive. They cost a company way too much money and the ROI just isn't there?

not entirely. I'm saying the lower end affiliates aren't needed. They cost too much, produce too little and oversaturate the market. In the long run they hurt more than they help.
At the risk of massive backlash, I'd say take your upper third of affiliates, and concentrate on keeping them sending traffic, and let the other guys fade away.

Mr. Blue
12-10-2006, 08:26 PM
not entirely. I'm saying the lower end affiliates aren't needed. They cost too much, produce too little and oversaturate the market. In the long run they hurt more than they help.

Only if you let them cost too much and only if you don't use them appropriately. I could name one program on the board and explain their methods, but I'm not because they're cultish following is very unpleasant to deal with and I'm too busy to fuck with that many people.

LadyMischief
12-10-2006, 08:41 PM
There's many programs that make a good amount of money off the "djroof" type webmasters and there's a methodology behind using noobie webmasters or unexperienced webmasters for traffic that you almost will never have to payout on.

Those free tools aren't that expensive when you factor in you'll almost never have to payout for the sales they generate and you can use it for 1000's of affiliates. So let's say little Ishkabibble affiliate signs up for a program, the program offers free content, fhg, a high minimum payout on a revshare program, etc. Let's say that he does send those 200 hits a month, makes a sale every 6 months, etc.

Will that Ishkabibble ever reach the minimum payout? He might, but I'm pretty sure he won't. There's one adult program that almost has a cult like following of noobies and if you carefully study how they use them it's nothing short of amazing.

Apparently you've never had to pay out on creating those "free tools", because they are FAR from "not that expensive". When you are talking the bulk that most affiliate programs need to put together to please their affiliate base, you are talking THOUSANDS in design, manpower, implimentation, updates, etc. It's an ongoing cost, and don't fool yourself otherwise for even a second. Not to mention those "djroof" people tend to need much more support and handholding, which means more manpower spent doing that.

Not saying those small affiliates can't have their value, but in the overall picture, the cost for THEM is not worth it, the only ones that really make the effort worth it are the ones with lots of traffic and sales. That's not bias, that's dollars and cents.

LadyMischief
12-10-2006, 08:42 PM
Sites become saturated regardless of who's pushing traffic to it, whether it's the 10% pros or the 90% of noobies or the in house traffic guys. The cost of launching new sites, having new tours, constantly adding new content is one that you have to factor in with starting up a program.

Also, you miss the way some programs can manipulate their noobie webmasters...the ratio starts sucking because of saturation, do you tell the affiliates? Hell no, you blame the traffic source, say tgp traffic is dirty traffic...go build blogs...by the time the blogs prove unproductive with the saturated site they're stuck sending that traffic to the program because they did all the entries with sponsor content. Noobies don't change sponsors like experienced webmasters do...many will try to get that minimum amount regardless of how much traffic they have to throw at it. So, there's benefits in courting a noobie webmaster and a few programs do really well by following this method.

Logic dictates, if it wasn't making them money, they'd stop doing it...the big programs continue to court anyone with an adult domain because there's money to be made there...if there wasn't, they wouldn't do it.


It's far more benificial for branding than it is for making money.

LadyMischief
12-10-2006, 08:44 PM
Affiliates are like having an army of employees.

There is always going to be a few that make more then the rest, but you're also going to have the newbie who hits on a new idea and his traffic starts flowing and the sales begin to rack up. Just because someone is new, doesn't illiminate them from the money making game. There are tons of people who get into the buisness and start raking in the money in no time.

So affiliate tools cost money... without affiliates, where would the traffic come from? Are you going to hire 100 employees to build pages and get links in the search engines? Are you going to advertise on every large traffic source you can find?
No matter what, you are going to have to spend money to make money and the affiliate model makes it easier. You build fhg, throw up some fpa/hpa's and a bit of content and 100's of people are putting up your links for free in the hopes that they'll make some money. They are the ones paying for the advertising and you just sit back and watch the sales roll in with minimal risk. Yeah, you're going to have to deal with the dumbass support issue. But lets face it, if you walk into a store and try to pay with a $2 bill, they are going to call the manager over because they aren't sure it's real money. Stupidity is everywhere in life.

You'd be absolutely amazed what can be accomplished with automation, smart choices and good organization. Affiliates bring in money, yes, but building up internal traffic for a program is really not dependant on having them. SMART programs have their internal sources of traffic BEFORE they offer it things up to affiliates.

Mr. Blue
12-10-2006, 11:09 PM
Apparently you've never had to pay out on creating those "free tools", because they are FAR from "not that expensive". When you are talking the bulk that most affiliate programs need to put together to please their affiliate base, you are talking THOUSANDS in design, manpower, implimentation, updates, etc. It's an ongoing cost, and don't fool yourself otherwise for even a second. Not to mention those "djroof" people tend to need much more support and handholding, which means more manpower spent doing that.

Not saying those small affiliates can't have their value, but in the overall picture, the cost for THEM is not worth it, the only ones that really make the effort worth it are the ones with lots of traffic and sales. That's not bias, that's dollars and cents.

Actually, you're suffering from the same illness Fluid is suffering from and only applying these "tools" to these huge programs. Since this thread made no specification on the size of the program or the tools involved...I'm more than capable of commenting on the cost of affiliate tools. :)

Now, granted the paysite / program I run isn't the largest in the biz and far from it...but I have an intimate understanding of every last penny involved in running it.

What I've repeatedly said was the following: One size fits all solutions never fit anyone exactly right. There's more than one way to skin a cat and each program has to find their own way.

I have a question for you though. Is Homegrowncash becoming a closed program?

Panky
12-11-2006, 02:21 AM
not entirely. I'm saying the lower end affiliates aren't needed. They cost too much, produce too little and oversaturate the market. In the long run they hurt more than they help.
At the risk of massive backlash, I'd say take your upper third of affiliates, and concentrate on keeping them sending traffic, and let the other guys fade away.
Interesting perspective. Who do you think are also buying the submit passes? Do really think that only the big boys are buying them? Did you ever read the threads where people are asking which submit pass they should buy, if they should buy any, and things along those lines? Many of those posts are made by people new to the game. Just read Netpond. That board is filled with new people, many "lower end" affiliates, as well as some who succeeded. GTS has made a lot of money selling passes to all levels of affiliates.

dizmo
12-11-2006, 08:29 AM
How can a promo tool/software cost more to create depending on how many affiliates you have? Whatcha been smoking, are u gonna have the coder rewrite it each time an affiliate request it?

LadyMischief
12-11-2006, 12:41 PM
Actually, you're suffering from the same illness Fluid is suffering from and only applying these "tools" to these huge programs. Since this thread made no specification on the size of the program or the tools involved...I'm more than capable of commenting on the cost of affiliate tools. :)

Now, granted the paysite / program I run isn't the largest in the biz and far from it...but I have an intimate understanding of every last penny involved in running it.

What I've repeatedly said was the following: One size fits all solutions never fit anyone exactly right. There's more than one way to skin a cat and each program has to find their own way.

I have a question for you though. Is Homegrowncash becoming a closed program?

Homegrowncash is closed to new affiliates for the moment because we are implimenting an entirely new affiliate program (keep your eyes peeled, we have a lot of exciting stuff happening in 2007 - our 25th Anniversary). We will however be open to affiliates next year. I can make some special exceptions in some circumstances, we are still in beta with some of our software and will have a more open beta coming in the early new year.

As for the one-size-fits all solution, I'm in full agreement, my points were more made to help some people who don't already understand that these things do cost money. A lot of affiliates are under the assumption there's no cost or it's no big effort for larger-scale programs to provide them with tools, but as the size of the program grows, so does the scale of work/cost.

StuartD
12-11-2006, 01:39 PM
It's interesting to see the two sides of the fence, and the separation in the people's positions between them.

Mr. Blue
12-11-2006, 03:40 PM
Homegrowncash is closed to new affiliates for the moment because we are implimenting an entirely new affiliate program (keep your eyes peeled, we have a lot of exciting stuff happening in 2007 - our 25th Anniversary). We will however be open to affiliates next year. I can make some special exceptions in some circumstances, we are still in beta with some of our software and will have a more open beta coming in the early new year.

So, is it a cost effective move to have employees of a company that's spending money on a new affiliate program / tools / etc saying that affiliates aren't needed? :D

I do understand that employees of a company still maintain their own opinions on topics. However, in the same breath they draw a salary to represent the company and in doing so their comments should be simpatico with the goals of the company.

Homegrowncash is spending money on affiliate tools...give the company the most bang for their buck by casting the largest net and not alienating potential affiliates of all sizes.

jact
12-11-2006, 03:44 PM
So, is it a cost effective move to have employees of a company that's spending money on a new affiliate program / tools / etc saying that affiliates aren't needed? :D

I do understand that employees of a company still maintain their own opinions on topics. However, in the same breath they draw a salary to represent the company and in doing so their comments should be simpatico with the goals of the company.

Homegrowncash is spending money on affiliate tools...give the company the most bang for their buck by casting the largest net and not alienating potential affiliates of all sizes.

Our goals will never match the "largest net" mentality though. We won't refuse anyone, however we will only offer premium services to those that qualify.

LadyMischief
12-11-2006, 03:49 PM
So, is it a cost effective move to have employees of a company that's spending money on a new affiliate program / tools / etc saying that affiliates aren't needed? :D

I do understand that employees of a company still maintain their own opinions on topics. However, in the same breath they draw a salary to represent the company and in doing so their comments should be simpatico with the goals of the company.

Homegrowncash is spending money on affiliate tools...give the company the most bang for their buck by casting the largest net and not alienating potential affiliates of all sizes.

I don't see how having a discussion about the affiliate model has anything to do at all with that? It's good to see where people's heads are at, and I don't see anywhere where we said we don't want/need affiliates. Business discussions are just that, a sharing of knowledge and ideas. I don't really see how that doesn't meet the goals of the "company"?

And I certainly don't see anywhere where anyone from Homegrown said WE do not want affiliates, I believe the purpose of the thread was an overall hypothetical discussion about where things are going. If you find it neccessary to twist the discussion into an agenda or something knock yourself out, but it's nice to see some THOUGHTFUL business discussion going on with BOTH sides of the story presented. Simply because companies don't base 100% of their business model on affiliates does that mean that they don't want to use or employ the affiliate model? NO SMART BUSINESS EVER puts all their eggs in one basket.

LadyMischief
12-11-2006, 03:53 PM
Our goals will never match the "largest net" mentality though. We won't refuse anyone, however we will only offer premium services to those that qualify.


Agreed, I'd rather have 200 active affiliates who send traffic and worth with us even if they aren't whales, than have 5000 affiliates in the database and not sending traffic. There's certainly no need to clamour for the lowest common denominator, like the people who sign up to programs to win contests and never go there again. Waste of time, effort and money.

I should mention, that for those who send traffic and make the effort, I will jump through hoops and go to the ends of the earth.. That's how it SHOULD be.

LadyMischief
12-11-2006, 03:57 PM
Interesting thread...
So affiliates are costly and time consuming, what exactly are affiliates asking for, what am i missing out on here?
And if its costing too much, just ask for some return. "We will do this for you when u reach a certain level of signups..."


A lot more programs are doing this.. offering services to people who actually send traffic and make an effort, and that makes sense. I don't think anyone is saying affiliates are too expensive, but remember, a program also takes a certain amount of risk on their shoulders with each new affiliate. 2257, not to mention billing and fraud possibilities. It goes both ways.

As for what affiliates are asking for, check the boards. People always want more and programs are always giving it, no matter what discussion we have here today that isn't going to change... however, the system is fundamentally flawed (in both directions) and it doesn't always work the way it should in reality as it should ideally.

jact
12-11-2006, 04:09 PM
I don't think anyone is saying affiliates are too expensive,

For the sake of this discussion, I actually am. What I really believe has nothing to do with this discussion however.

jact
12-11-2006, 04:10 PM
I must say, this is definitely an interesting thread. We've had a lot of different opinions voiced and it seems there's more then two sides to this coin.

It is however always funny to watch people get defensive when they fear they may become extinct. I was only asking a question people ;)

LadyMischief
12-11-2006, 04:14 PM
For the sake of this discussion, I actually am. What I really believe has nothing to do with this discussion however.


Yes this entire thread is about generalities, and people making inferrances based on those generalities are doing that, making assumptions. I personally think it's awesome to see where people are at, how they think, and take their suggestions and use them to make things better. There have already been a ton of things in this thread that can be used as building blocks for making a better system, and sometimes picking a system apart is the best way to improve it.

Mr. Blue
12-11-2006, 04:25 PM
rdv

Okay, you're hired as an affiliate manager, the goal of homegrown is to get as many affiliates as possible in, hence why jact said, "We won't refuse anyone"...so Homegrown's business model is to cast a large net, get affiliates in, and offer special tools to premium affiliates...this is not rocket science and this is how many programs run.

Now, the affiliate manager should express the goals of the company they represent. You can say this is a hypothetical discussion, but potential affiliates are reading this and when they see comments like:


Not saying those small affiliates can't have their value, but in the overall picture, the cost for THEM is not worth it, the only ones that really make the effort worth it are the ones with lots of traffic and sales. That's not bias, that's dollars and cents.

Now, jact says you won't refuse anyone. The owner of homegrown wants to cast a large net otherwise he'd maintain a closed status and not even offer general tools.

As a salaried employee, even in a hypothetical discussion, need to realize that potential affiliates are reading this thread and that they may be turned off by people saying they're not worth it, LOL.

dizmo
12-11-2006, 05:03 PM
I must say, this is definitely an interesting thread. We've had a lot of different opinions voiced and it seems there's more then two sides to this coin.
not that many voices i believe. compared to a thread about what someone had for dinner, or some video clip, but yes, interesting thread.
I guess some just don't have a freaking clue what the topic here actually is, hence the silence.

LadyMischief
12-11-2006, 05:09 PM
Okay, you're hired as an affiliate manager, the goal of homegrown is to get as many affiliates as possible in, hence why jact said, "We won't refuse anyone"...so Homegrown's business model is to cast a large net, get affiliates in, and offer special tools to premium affiliates...this is not rocket science and this is how many programs run.

Now, the affiliate manager should express the goals of the company they represent. You can say this is a hypothetical discussion, but potential affiliates are reading this and when they see comments like:



Now, jact says you won't refuse anyone. The owner of homegrown wants to cast a large net otherwise he'd maintain a closed status and not even offer general tools.

As a salaried employee, even in a hypothetical discussion, need to realize that potential affiliates are reading this thread and that they may be turned off by people saying they're not worth it, LOL.

Actually, I am NOT an affiliate manager, I'm the Affiliate Marketing Manager and that puts me in charge of everything to do with affiliate marketing. That includes finding ways and harvesting information to make the system better. You are making it out like I said we weren't interested in having affiliates, simply because I said they cost money. The truth is, they do cost money, but if they weren't worth it, do you think we'd be spending money on bringing them in? That doesn't mean that throwing away money is something that we plan on doing, maximizing on return by working with affiliates who have the traffic and are willing to put in the time, now THAT is a worthwhile investment, both monetarily and in manpower. Just don't expect us to be doing posting contests to pick up useless chattel that won't do anything other than clutter up our affiliate database? We'd rather do business-based things with business-minded people.

And simply because the affiliate model doesn't give optimum ROI doesn't mean it's not a fabulous tool, it's simply not a good tool to rely on as the ONLY means of advertising/branding a program, or even monetizing a program. Please stop assuming that simply because something is a topic of discussion that everything is cut and dried.

LadyMischief
12-11-2006, 05:12 PM
As a salaried employee, even in a hypothetical discussion, need to realize that potential affiliates are reading this thread and that they may be turned off by people saying they're not worth it, LOL.

There are a lot of things that people do in business that don't make sense in dollars and cents on paper, but work in a real-life scenario, and vice versa. Communism looks great on paper, doesn't work out so well in reality. There are always other elements to the whole situation, the affiliate model is NOT the perfect solution on paper, in practice it's an excellent tool for traffic, sales, and branding.

Shap
12-11-2006, 05:28 PM
You're completely focused on one aspect of the equation and you're not looking at the full picture of how a program benefits even from small affiliates that send traffic. So, I'm going to give you a snippet of the full picture and let you fill in the gaps.

First off, affiliate support is not that costly. MP has around 1300+ affilates and their support consists of Kevin and Mailman...both of which do other tasks than just affilate support. More or less, affiliates want the tools, you give it them, and they leave you alone. The MP board is self-sustaining, it gets paid by advertisers, gets moderated by what amounts to volunteers and is also another avenue for affiliate support. Twistys only has Shap and Kevin as affiliate support, they probably have around the same amount of affiliates as MP and both also handle other aspects of the business besides affiliate support. Look at other programs and you'll see that most have barebone affiliate support.

So, that's the first fallacy in your thinking...handling a large pool of affiliates is that costly...it isn't.

Secondly, people keep commenting on the cost of bandwidth for the FHGs, but no one is calculating the benefits of having even small time affiliates pushing traffic. What does even a small time affiliate bring to a program:


Traffic in which they pay for the bandwidth (since you can't submit FHG to tgps, LLs, etc...that bandwidth gets paid by the affiliate)
Design - a small affiliate will design something...it might be ugly, it might be crappy, but still it's taking the time to put html down and it's worth something...something that the program doesn't have to pay for
Small timers do buy accounts through places like Submitpasses. That's another expenditure the sponsor doesn't have to put out
Submitting galleries, etc, etc, still takes time and a program doesn't have to fear any concern regarding multi-submitting because it's a legitmate second individual that's doing the submitting. I do know some programs hire people to submit to tgps...why hire someone when you can get someone to do it for free?
Software, tools, etc...many of those unproductive noobs do spend money on programs like Chameleon, Advanced Submitter, etc, there's another thing a program doesn't have to pay for.


That's just sampling of what even a small affiliate can bring back to a program at little or no cost. An affiliate sends 200 hits a month through a blog he built, he didn't bother you on icq, and he continues to send you traffic until he meets the minimum payout. I'd take an affiliate like that...hell, if a 200 hit a month affiliate contacted me I'd show him all the necessary tutorials he needs to send 100x that amount of traffic...if they use it, great, if they don't I lost all of 1 minute posting links for them.

Still, as I said from the start...different programs follow different paths, there's no right or wrong way as long as you're making money :)

Great post Mr Blue!

Hi Guys. I haven't had a chance to catch up on this whole thread yet. If any of you have any specific questions for me regarding running an affiliate program fire away :)

Fluid
12-11-2006, 05:36 PM
How can a promo tool/software cost more to create depending on how many affiliates you have? Whatcha been smoking, are u gonna have the coder rewrite it each time an affiliate request it?


called server load and bandwidth :rolleyes:

LadyMischief
12-11-2006, 05:41 PM
Great post Mr Blue!

Hi Guys. I haven't had a chance to catch up on this whole thread yet. If any of you have any specific questions for me regarding running an affiliate program fire away :)


Hey Shap! Nice to see ya over here again! Shap is the man when it comes to this kind of stuff, and I'm sure if you ask him he doesn't rely entirely on affiliates for traffic. He has his own sources of traffic as well, and he shines in the affiliate market as well because of his fabulous reputation for service and excellence. He covers ALL the bases. :)

Mr. Blue
12-11-2006, 05:59 PM
Actually, I am NOT an affiliate manager, I'm the Affiliate Marketing Manager and that puts me in charge of everything to do with affiliate marketing.

I'm terribly sorry, Affiliate Marketing Manager...Got it. However, titles are not really all that important, what is important is that you're a paid representative of a company that has certain goals it wants to reach.


You are making it out like I said we weren't interested in having affiliates, simply because I said they cost money.

I used a direct quote and I'm not putting any words in your mouth at all...and I'll repeat the snippet, "but in the overall picture, the cost for THEM is not worth it"....so you think this makes you endearing to affiliates? You don't think it's counter-productive? To me it seems a little counter-productive. Perhaps it was just an erratum in the way you wished to present views, but since we're using a medium of words that's what I have to judge your opinions on :)

Anyway, I have tons of work to do and I need to get back to it. It's great to theorize on topics, but it's best to put the theories into practice :D

dizmo
12-11-2006, 06:00 PM
called server load and bandwidth :rolleyes:
So bandwidth and hardware is what the big issue here...anything else?

Shap
12-11-2006, 06:05 PM
Hey Shap! Nice to see ya over here again! Shap is the man when it comes to this kind of stuff, and I'm sure if you ask him he doesn't rely entirely on affiliates for traffic. He has his own sources of traffic as well, and he shines in the affiliate market as well because of his fabulous reputation for service and excellence. He covers ALL the bases. :)

Thanks Treasure :)

Mr. Blue
12-11-2006, 06:11 PM
Great post Mr Blue!

Hi Guys. I haven't had a chance to catch up on this whole thread yet. If any of you have any specific questions for me regarding running an affiliate program fire away :)

Hiya Shap, thanks for the kind words. Sorry if I set off a boardtracker for you, lol, but Twistys is one of those programs that I personally find interesting to look at because it's so well rounded and follows some rules that other programs would scorn, but has been successful for you. You found a business model that works for you and it's worked really well. When it comes to the bottomline of this discussion is a program has to find what works for them and you're just a good example of that.

Shap
12-11-2006, 06:24 PM
not entirely. I'm saying the lower end affiliates aren't needed. They cost too much, produce too little and oversaturate the market. In the long run they hurt more than they help.
At the risk of massive backlash, I'd say take your upper third of affiliates, and concentrate on keeping them sending traffic, and let the other guys fade away.

I understand what you are saying. Run an affiliate program with only your top affiliates. While this isn't a bad idea i think it leaves alot of money on the table.

Here are my thoughts on a few things.
- Costs should never be an issue. If the cost of bw is an issue then you have bigger issues to worry about. Your tour and galleries aren't converting the way they should be. I'm a host's best friend. BW is never a limitation to any idea we have. We never resize gallery pictures. We always go full res to show the surfer what they'll be getting.

- Over saturation is most likely not going to be an issue for you. You have to be really big for over saturation to be a factor. If you get to the point of being over saturated you are making so much coin it's insane. I feel Twistys is a decent sized site and it is nowhere near over saturated.

- Affiliate support is not costly. As Mr Blue mentioned the cost of supporting affiliates is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

- Small affiliates become big affiliates. In our years of running TwistysCash we've seen alot of small affiliates become part of our top affiliates. If you limit your affiliates to begin you'll be limiting yourself from developing a really good relationship with an affiliate from the ground up. There is nothing like being a person's first sponsor program and going from 1 signup a month to 50 a month and seeing the person's operation grow thanks to your program and your checks and most importantly your advice.

- The biggest factor that you are forgetting is BRANDING! In fact I believe this is one of the most overlooked things in our industry. Your idea of running with fewer affiliates is basically limiting your branding out of fear of over saturation. There is rarely a valid reason to limit your branding. The bigger your brand becomes the more each affiliate is worth to you. Affiliates help your brand expand exponentially without you having to do all the work.

Shap
12-11-2006, 06:30 PM
Hiya Shap, thanks for the kind words. Sorry if I set off a boardtracker for you, lol, but Twistys is one of those programs that I personally find interesting to look at because it's so well rounded and follows some rules that other programs would scorn, but has been successful for you. You found a business model that works for you and it's worked really well. When it comes to the bottomline of this discussion is a program has to find what works for them and you're just a good example of that.

Thanks Mr Blue. I think the reason for that is our roots. I started out in CJs then moved that traffic into the TGP world and then into the paysite world. All along i tried to remember all the aspects that helped our company continue to move forward. I remember and know what it's like to fight for a bookmark. Fight for a good link trade. Fight to keep a member happy so he retains. So I try to bring all of that together and fold it into our program. I don't want to steal my affiliates traffic. I value their traffic and try my best to have tools that keep their traffic happy and possibly help them build bookmarks on the traffic that isn't buying. Alot of sponsors don't value the hardwork affiliates put in simply because they've never had to do it themselves.

LadyMischief
12-11-2006, 06:45 PM
I'm terribly sorry, Affiliate Marketing Manager...Got it. However, titles are not really all that important, what is important is that you're a paid representative of a company that has certain goals it wants to reach.



I used a direct quote and I'm not putting any words in your mouth at all...and I'll repeat the snippet, "but in the overall picture, the cost for THEM is not worth it"....so you think this makes you endearing to affiliates? You don't think it's counter-productive? To me it seems a little counter-productive. Perhaps it was just an erratum in the way you wished to present views, but since we're using a medium of words that's what I have to judge your opinions on :)

Anyway, I have tons of work to do and I need to get back to it. It's great to theorize on topics, but it's best to put the theories into practice :D

You skipped my other posts eh? :)

LadyMischief
12-11-2006, 06:50 PM
Thanks Mr Blue. I think the reason for that is our roots. I started out in CJs then moved that traffic into the TGP world and then into the paysite world. All along i tried to remember all the aspects that helped our company continue to move forward. I remember and know what it's like to fight for a bookmark. Fight for a good link trade. Fight to keep a member happy so he retains. So I try to bring all of that together and fold it into our program. I don't want to steal my affiliates traffic. I value their traffic and try my best to have tools that keep their traffic happy and possibly help them build bookmarks on the traffic that isn't buying. Alot of sponsors don't value the hardwork affiliates put in simply because they've never had to do it themselves.


This is true most of those people have NO idea what is involved in the mechanics of submitting, building galleries, gathering traffic etc. The ones that do, however, can better service the people in the way that they need.

Asking questions and getting useful answers is a good thing. I know that every criticism or error ever pointed out with Shap's sites/program (and they are VERY few and far between) has been corrected immediately, and he's always asking business questions and entertaining new ideas. That's why he always thrives, and he's always willing to put in hard work. Gotta love that about a program owner. (He's got Shapette too, they're a two-man army!)

Mr. Blue
12-11-2006, 10:19 PM
You skipped my other posts eh? :)

I read all your posts and jacts, but there's really no need for me to dissect the topic any further though. Shap's posts pretty much encapsulated a number of topics, the main topic that was the original crux of the thread, but also subtle secondary topics. Affiliates of all traffic levels that happen to read this thread will 100% signup with Twistys if they aren't already part of the program. He knows how to represent his company. Now the real question, "Would it be too tacky for me to post my referral link to Twistys?" :lol1:

Fluid
12-12-2006, 10:24 AM
So bandwidth and hardware is what the big issue here...anything else?

I'll type you up a synopsis and send it over when you wire over cash to cover my time, otherwise read the thread.

dizmo
12-12-2006, 11:37 AM
I'll type you up a synopsis and send it over when you wire over cash to cover my time, otherwise read the thread.
Nah, Im not interested in what you got to sell, I tihnk you should be less cocky and read this post
http://bbs.mediumpimpin.com/showpost.php?p=753761&postcount=100?
before you keep running around teaching ppl.

Shap
12-12-2006, 12:10 PM
Even when you figure in those people that never make the minimum, I'm still hearing figures like 10% of the webmasters are bringing in 90% of the site's profits.

I just ran a check to see what our breakdown was.

So I took all webmasters that have sent one signup in the last 3 months. I think it is fair to consider that our active webmaster base.

From that i took the top 60% of our affiliates.
Those top 60% account for 45% of our overall revenue.

The 90-10 rule doesn't apply to us at all.

Shap
12-12-2006, 12:11 PM
I just ran a check to see what our breakdown was.

So I took all webmasters that have sent one signup in the last 3 months. I think it is fair to consider that our active webmaster base.

From that i took the top 60% of our affiliates.
Those top 60% account for 45% of our overall revenue.

The 90-10 rule doesn't apply to us at all.

Note. If i change my definition of an active webmaster to all webmasters that have sent a hit in the past 3 months. The top affiliates become my top 21% and that top 21% accounts for 45% of overall revenue.

LadyMischief
12-12-2006, 12:47 PM
I read all your posts and jacts, but there's really no need for me to dissect the topic any further though. Shap's posts pretty much encapsulated a number of topics, the main topic that was the original crux of the thread, but also subtle secondary topics. Affiliates of all traffic levels that happen to read this thread will 100% signup with Twistys if they aren't already part of the program. He knows how to represent his company. Now the real question, "Would it be too tacky for me to post my referral link to Twistys?" :lol1:


You should. Twistys is one of the best programs in the business and makes people money ;)

Fluid
12-12-2006, 01:41 PM
Nah, Im not interested in what you got to sell, I tihnk you should be less cocky and read this post
http://bbs.mediumpimpin.com/showpost.php?p=753761&postcount=100?
before you keep running around teaching ppl.


Less cocky? Like you ya mean? :lol1:
My reply was sarcastic, much like the last two sarcastic replies you made to me. Lets turn this around for a moment while you're trying to "teach me" (by the way...hello pot). What program or paysites do you own, or worked for?

Fluid
12-12-2006, 01:48 PM
Note. If i change my definition of an active webmaster to all webmasters that have sent a hit in the past 3 months. The top affiliates become my top 21% and that top 21% accounts for 45% of overall revenue.

the figures I was pointing out included the whole affiliate database. I figure most programs run the numbers divided across all affiliates as well as just the active ones for a more complete picture of active vs inactive affiliates.

Fluid
12-12-2006, 02:18 PM
I understand what you are saying. Run an affiliate program with only your top affiliates. While this isn't a bad idea i think it leaves alot of money on the table.

Here are my thoughts on a few things.
- Costs should never be an issue. If the cost of bw is an issue then you have bigger issues to worry about. Your tour and galleries aren't converting the way they should be. I'm a host's best friend. BW is never a limitation to any idea we have. We never resize gallery pictures. We always go full res to show the surfer what they'll be getting.

- Over saturation is most likely not going to be an issue for you. You have to be really big for over saturation to be a factor. If you get to the point of being over saturated you are making so much coin it's insane. I feel Twistys is a decent sized site and it is nowhere near over saturated.

- Affiliate support is not costly. As Mr Blue mentioned the cost of supporting affiliates is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

- Small affiliates become big affiliates. In our years of running TwistysCash we've seen alot of small affiliates become part of our top affiliates. If you limit your affiliates to begin you'll be limiting yourself from developing a really good relationship with an affiliate from the ground up. There is nothing like being a person's first sponsor program and going from 1 signup a month to 50 a month and seeing the person's operation grow thanks to your program and your checks and most importantly your advice.

- The biggest factor that you are forgetting is BRANDING! In fact I believe this is one of the most overlooked things in our industry. Your idea of running with fewer affiliates is basically limiting your branding out of fear of over saturation. There is rarely a valid reason to limit your branding. The bigger your brand becomes the more each affiliate is worth to you. Affiliates help your brand expand exponentially without you having to do all the work.

I'm not really saying only "top" affiliates, just ones actively sending sales. Branding's a good thing, but is it worthwhile for a very large program to support those webmasters not sending sales with free hosted galleries and other tools just to support it? Or would they get more bang for their buck limiting those special tools to those who show that interest in growing?

Over saturation is a problem when it comes to getting listings. Programs give out a fixed number of zip files a week or month as promotional content and everyone is drawing from that same limited pool. I see many declined galleries for the "stale" content reason alone, and this is what I mean by over-saturation. I seem to get this with medium sized programs as well as larger ones, and in the past have gotten it with smaller ones as well, although not nearly as frequently. There's a mad race for medium sized affiliates to get the fresher content because of this demand. As a submitter I'd welcome a program that gave me a better chance of getting my content listed by limiting the number of affiliates that had access to it.

I do think people are looking at my comments and figuring that I'm talking big figures for affiliate support, I'm not (at least not per affiliate). They are also taking it as what I have been relating applies to ALL webmaster programs, it doesn't. I'm simply saying that larger webmaster programs have a large amount of affiliates actively using their bandwidth and not producing revenue from it. While each affiliate doesn't use much (hence your lower cost of support and bw) when there's a large group of them it's a sizable amount in a year that I believe could be better invested in helping the med to large affiliates make more sales.

I will say, if I were to open back up my paysites, I'd keep the program limited to a fixed number of affiliates (a number I'd feel comfortable personally managing) and I don't think I would ever open more than two sites, likely only one. I've heard too many complaints about what being bigger than that brings and I cherish the 3-4 hours sleep I get a day too much to risk it ;)

dizmo
12-12-2006, 02:26 PM
Less cocky? Like you ya mean? :lol1:

Exactly! :D


Lets turn this around for a moment while you're trying to "teach me" (by the way...hello pot). What program or paysites do you own, or worked for?
Turn around? teach you? If you are trying to say that experience from running or working for a program is a criteria for this thread, go right ahead, I never shared any facts or knowledge in this thread, i just asked a question. I got one answer, and that was contradicted by Shap's in depth explanation.

jact
12-12-2006, 02:30 PM
I never shared any facts or knowledge in this thread, i just asked a question. I got one answer, and that was contradicted by Shap's in depth explanation.

Keep in mind that comparing Twistys to say, Reality Cash is like comparing apples to oranges. You'll get a completely different demographic promoting the two programs (While you will have some overlap, they're very fundamentally different). His statistical breakdown is definitely good food for thought, but you also have to keep in mind that a lot of people will never sign up for Twistys if they don't have the right kind of traffic. His "dead weight" would be lower by default because it isn't as broad a market within the webmaster community.

(Please keep in mind I'm basing the above on my personal experiences and those of people I've worked closely with over the years -- He may indeed get more overlap then I realize).

Fluid
12-12-2006, 02:36 PM
Exactly! :D

Turn around? teach you? If you are trying to say that experience from running or working for a program is a criteria for this thread, go right ahead, I never shared any facts or knowledge in this thread, i just asked a question. I got one answer, and that was contradicted by Shap's in depth explanation.

Like Jact said, Shap didn't contradict me, or me contradict him. We're sharing opinions based on our experiences, and those shared with us from other webmasters as well. Hence my shot at you about schooling. I'm not trying to teach anyone anything (in fact, I'd love to learn shap and have), just clarifying what I've seen to be true.

As far as opinions, it's just like tails...all swedes have them :lol1:

Shap
12-12-2006, 02:43 PM
Keep in mind that comparing Twistys to say, Reality Cash is like comparing apples to oranges. You'll get a completely different demographic promoting the two programs (While you will have some overlap, they're very fundamentally different). His statistical breakdown is definitely good food for thought, but you also have to keep in mind that a lot of people will never sign up for Twistys if they don't have the right kind of traffic. His "dead weight" would be lower by default because it isn't as broad a market within the webmaster community.

(Please keep in mind I'm basing the above on my personal experiences and those of people I've worked closely with over the years -- He may indeed get more overlap then I realize).

We definitely have our "dead weight" as you put it. The reason why I don't disregard all those webmasters is because Twistys isn't the only site we plan to run. We have a number of sites in production and with most of our new sites our goal is to expand our offerings to webmasters. As with just about every paysite Twistys does not convert all traffic. Sadly we are unable to convert shemale traffic lol. Just kidding but seriously we are very aware that we won't convert all traffic. We are honest with our affiliates and try to have a good relationship with them whether they send us 1 sale a month or 200. I'm not worries about the number of sales an affiliate sends as much as how our relationship is. As long as we have a good relationship in time we will be doing good business together. We will eventually have a site that will make them money and it would have been a shame to lose that affiliate just because he wasn't a big hitter on Twistys.

jact
12-12-2006, 02:46 PM
We definitely have our "dead weight" as you put it. The reason why I don't disregard all those webmasters is because Twistys isn't the only site we plan to run. We have a number of sites in production and with most of our new sites our goal is to expand our offerings to webmasters. As with just about every paysite Twistys does not convert all traffic. Sadly we are unable to convert shemale traffic lol. Just kidding but seriously we are very aware that we won't convert all traffic. We are honest with our affiliates and try to have a good relationship with them whether they send us 1 sale a month or 200. I'm not worries about the number of sales an affiliate sends as much as how our relationship is. As long as we have a good relationship in time we will be doing good business together. We will eventually have a site that will make them money and it would have been a shame to lose that affiliate just because he wasn't a big hitter on Twistys.

I understand fully, but you also have to note, a lot of people aren't even signing up for your program because of the glamor factor, same with MP and other programs that are in that niche.

I would love to do business with you guys, but I have nothing to offer, so I simply don't sign up.

Fluid
12-12-2006, 02:58 PM
We definitely have our "dead weight" as you put it. The reason why I don't disregard all those webmasters is because Twistys isn't the only site we plan to run. We have a number of sites in production and with most of our new sites our goal is to expand our offerings to webmasters. As with just about every paysite Twistys does not convert all traffic. Sadly we are unable to convert shemale traffic lol. Just kidding but seriously we are very aware that we won't convert all traffic. We are honest with our affiliates and try to have a good relationship with them whether they send us 1 sale a month or 200. I'm not worries about the number of sales an affiliate sends as much as how our relationship is. As long as we have a good relationship in time we will be doing good business together. We will eventually have a site that will make them money and it would have been a shame to lose that affiliate just because he wasn't a big hitter on Twistys.


this just reaffirms my ideas of staying small, possibly one man operation. Especially if it does give you the flexibility to add sites and tweak them to the affiliate base you have. I don't like the idea of dumping people personally from an affiliate program, but the devil's hat does fit me so well. ;)

Shap
12-12-2006, 02:58 PM
I understand fully, but you also have to note, a lot of people aren't even signing up for your program because of the glamor factor, same with MP and other programs that are in that niche.

I would love to do business with you guys, but I have nothing to offer, so I simply don't sign up.

Agreed. But if you did sign up and never sent a hit would it be smart for me to delete your info? Every affiliate has a value. They may not have made me any money in the last 4 years. But in the next year or 2 maybe they'll be my biggest affiliate. I know offhand of 5 of our affiliates that have never sent us a hit but have the ability to send 30 to 50 signups a day. We'll do business one day :)

I think alot of people get hung up worrying about doing business with only people or affiliates that make them money. You never know how big someone is and that's why i never worry about that and try to form good relationships with everyone.

jact
12-12-2006, 03:00 PM
Agreed. But if you did sign up and never sent a hit would it be smart for me to delete your info? Every affiliate has a value. They may not have made me any money in the last 4 years. But in the next year or 2 maybe they'll be my biggest affiliate. I know offhand of 5 of our affiliates that have never sent us a hit but have the ability to send 30 to 50 signups a day. We'll do business one day :)

I think alot of people get hung up worrying about doing business with only people or affiliates that make them money. You never know how big someone is and that's why i never worry about that and try to form good relationships with everyone.

Very valid points to consider. See, this discussion did serve a purpose. ;)

Shap
12-12-2006, 03:03 PM
this just reaffirms my ideas of staying small, possibly one man operation. Especially if it does give you the flexibility to add sites and tweak them to the affiliate base you have. I don't like the idea of dumping people personally from an affiliate program, but the devil's hat does fit me so well. ;)

It all depends on what your goals are. My question to you is why keep it small if you can be bigger? Why leave money on the table? I don't know about you but I'm not in this biz for the public praise of being a pornographer. I'm in this to make money.

Shap
12-12-2006, 03:11 PM
Very valid points to consider. See, this discussion did serve a purpose. ;)

I always enjoy discussing things. There are so many ways of doing business and being successful in our industry. I love it. Nothing lights a fire under my ass like finding out a new business model that is absolutely tearing it up.

jact
12-12-2006, 03:16 PM
I always enjoy discussing things. There are so many ways of doing business and being successful in our industry. I love it. Nothing lights a fire under my ass like finding out a new business model that is absolutely tearing it up.

I'm working on a new concept shortly that would tie into the Twistys offerings, I would love to be able to sit down with you and flesh out ways we can work the angle together sometime next year.

Actually, I'm working on two concepts I'd like to include you in.

Mr. Blue
12-12-2006, 03:26 PM
We definitely have our "dead weight" as you put it. The reason why I don't disregard all those webmasters is because Twistys isn't the only site we plan to run. We have a number of sites in production and with most of our new sites our goal is to expand our offerings to webmasters. As with just about every paysite Twistys does not convert all traffic. Sadly we are unable to convert shemale traffic lol. Just kidding but seriously we are very aware that we won't convert all traffic. We are honest with our affiliates and try to have a good relationship with them whether they send us 1 sale a month or 200. I'm not worries about the number of sales an affiliate sends as much as how our relationship is. As long as we have a good relationship in time we will be doing good business together. We will eventually have a site that will make them money and it would have been a shame to lose that affiliate just because he wasn't a big hitter on Twistys.

I wish more sponsors followed this mentality because it fosters good business relationships even with people that might not necessarily send traffic to your program.

A tale of two programs in the same niche: Program X sends a rep to the boards that's abrasive, rude, condescending, makes small affiliates feel worthless, and perhaps have a bitterness towards affiliates because they couldn't cut it as an affiliate themselves. This person can be working for a great company, but they've needlessly put a negative slant on their program.

The program A sends someone that is polite, well informed, and is there to help. They're willing to be sincere about their company, answer questions in an adult manner, and generally leave a good impression.

Now if my traffic didn't fit either sponsors...I just wouldn't send traffic to either, maybe that makes me "dead weight" to that program. However, if someone asks me to recommend a sponsor...which do you think I'd recommend based on that impression? If sponsor A comes out with something that would suit my traffic...I'd jump to promote them.

Shaps thinking on it is right...good business relationships are important and will always come to fruition.

MP
12-12-2006, 03:31 PM
I'm working on a new concept shortly that would tie into the Twistys offerings, I would love to be able to sit down with you and flesh out ways we can work the angle together sometime next year.

Actually, I'm working on two concepts I'd like to include you in.What about me bitch I let you drive my M3?

MP
12-12-2006, 03:32 PM
I'm working on a new concept shortly that would tie into the Twistys offerings, I would love to be able to sit down with you and flesh out ways we can work the angle together sometime next year.

Actually, I'm working on two concepts I'd like to include you in.And I bought you shitty food at Gloria Estefan's restaurant :lol1:

Fluid
12-12-2006, 03:33 PM
What about me bitch I let you drive my M3?

hmm...let me have some quality time with your porche and I'll run your galleries on all my passes ;)

jact
12-12-2006, 03:35 PM
And I bought you shitty food at Gloria Estefan's restaurant :lol1:

Why the fuck you think I'm going to see you in February?! You get first crack, biatch.

Cuban Chick
12-12-2006, 03:44 PM
its nice to see name calling leading to a great business relationship :) what other industry can you call each other a bitch and still be partners?

Fluid
12-12-2006, 03:47 PM
its nice to see name calling leading to a great business relationship :) what other industry can you call each other a bitch and still be partners?

shush dork
you're such a newb...go submit a gallery for me will ya?

Fluid
12-12-2006, 03:49 PM
And I bought you shitty food at Gloria Estefan's restaurant :lol1:

if that's the place you took me to, I loved that food.

Cuban Chick
12-12-2006, 03:53 PM
shush dork
you're such a newb...go submit a gallery for me will ya?
call me a dork again and i'll beat your ass punk.

MP
12-12-2006, 03:54 PM
if that's the place you took me to, I loved that food.Really that place sucked!

KRM
12-12-2006, 03:59 PM
Really that place sucked!
He's canadian it's the first time he ever had meat that wasn't moose:)

Fluid
12-12-2006, 05:04 PM
He's canadian it's the first time he ever had meat that wasn't moose:)

I've eaten chinese before, since this was cuban food it wasn't far off...it's all cat right?

Fluid
12-12-2006, 05:05 PM
Really that place sucked!

greeeeat
I'm the redheaded stepchild again. You take jact and I to a shitty place, and your real friends to someplace swank huh? I see how it is, last time I give you a reacharound :(

KRM
12-12-2006, 05:10 PM
I've eaten chinese before, since this was cuban food it wasn't far off...it's all cat right?
Chinese is dog cuban is cat. It used to be dog as well but they have eaten the cuban dogs into extinction:(

jact
12-12-2006, 07:24 PM
greeeeat
I'm the redheaded stepchild again. You take jact and I to a shitty place, and your real friends to someplace swank huh? I see how it is, last time I give you a reacharound :(

He's taking me to someplace swank in February. Just wanted to rub that in. :hello:

jact
12-19-2006, 04:11 PM
Funny, this same discussion is going on currently on another board, and it isn't going the same over there..

the Shemp
12-19-2006, 04:40 PM
Funny, this same discussion is going on currently on another board, and it isn't going the same over there..

yes, i saw that...different demographic on that board..

LadyMischief
12-19-2006, 04:45 PM
yes, i saw that...different demographic on that board..


Different views from different backgrounds/experience.

jact
12-19-2006, 04:45 PM
yes, i saw that...different demographic on that board..

Very different, agreed.

dizmo
12-19-2006, 08:35 PM
what board?

dyonisus
12-19-2006, 08:57 PM
its an industry where you need to find traffic in whateve rmeans possible and if you are not using any available tool then you cant expect sales to grow.
Affiliate programs should have someone to help the affiliates optimize their traffic and make more sales. IMHO, I mean if you are not workgin your affiliates how do you expect them to produce for you.

Both models have merit. Maybe there is also another model out there to help as well. I know I use whatever means necessary to get traffic. Well that I can.

EnticeTV_Susan
12-19-2006, 10:14 PM
As a new sponsor, I believe that an affiliate program for a mega VOD site like Entice.TV is essential. Mine is a video distribution company, a broadband tv network, so I am not a producer, not a webmaster, not an internet marketing company and must rely on professionals and experts in each of these critical areas. You can build a better mousetrap but marketing it effectively is the key. Yes, we will continue to do marketing to both webmasters and consumers, but believe that a successful affiliate program is most important to the longterm success of the company.

MP
12-19-2006, 10:27 PM
what board?Yea which one?

jact
12-19-2006, 10:46 PM
Yea which one?

The other other white meat.