PDA

View Full Version : Interesting Thread on Shaving



Mr. Blue
10-17-2005, 01:44 AM
xxxjay posted this link on another forum...I'm going to post it here as I think it's an eye opening type read. Onprobation.com posted their stats and pretty much didn't pussy foot around the topic of shaving.

http://board.getpaidbaby.com/viewtopic.php?t=393&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=5da705299e6678ff7b42c61169699a0c

I'm not going to support or deny the stuff he says about specific sponsors. I will say that I've learned a lot in the last month or two. I've had some very interesting experiments with my own stats and after a month of studying I pretty much have my course of action mapped :)

Discuss, get pissed, defend or refute what this guy says...but by all means discuss it.

Angel
10-17-2005, 03:18 AM
I think it's a very nice thread actually. Why? Not because of the drama that will ensue but simply because he isn't afraid to out sponsors who he obviously feels are giving him the short end of the stick. We all have them but no one ever has the balls to out and say this is who it is. I don't think it's a bad thing at all that he's willing to show the wizard that's behind the curtain of so many programs these days.

Mr. Blue
10-17-2005, 03:31 AM
I think that's what I liked about the thread...he explained his point, he had the balls to do it, and wasn't afraid of the backlash (oh and there will be a backlash) from what he posted.

We've all seen people accuse a sponsor of shaving and the usual result is they get ripped to shreds on the boards. I realize there's lots of factors with conversion etc, the type of traffic, how skilled the webmaster is...but so many people turn a blind eye to the topic of shaving for fear of retribution.

ynuahayt
10-17-2005, 03:32 AM
Very interesting to say the least. For a long time I have pretty much not thought about sponsors shaving because I've not even been in the industry for a year so I still consider myself the new guy on the block. Therefore I always convince myself that bad ratios and lack of sales is due to my sales pitch being bad and I just keep plugging away.

But really, when I look at my stats now and see what sponsors has done the best for me there are definitely several ones that runs with NATS in the top. A guy in that post points out though that it should also be easy to "hack" NATS and put in a shaving module and he is not too sure it would be seen by anyone so I guess you a'int safe nowhere anymore. Just gotta stick with what's making you money is what this boils down to.

Cash
10-17-2005, 03:50 AM
Funny how he says about possible scams and puts a referral link to a sponsor in that list :)

the Shemp
10-17-2005, 03:58 AM
Just gotta stick with what's making you money is what this boils down to.

how do you know you are making all the money you are entitled too?

ynuahayt
10-17-2005, 04:33 AM
how do you know you are making all the money you are entitled too?

Yeah that's the problem - I know you are a "Gimme all my sales or I'm outta here"-guy (hell, who a'int!?) but how will one EVER get 100% complete trust in a sponsor program? I mean, I live in Denmark and won't come to any convention in the US in the near future so my relationship with sponsors will always be through mails/ICQ. Even though I send a sponsor 100 sales per week (I don't...yet) they could still shave my ass and be all kind and assuring towards me in my mails and ICQ's.

Ok thinking that over that leads us nowhere because sponsors can be the same to any american big shot who go to conventions and stuff...so it boils down to trust instead I guess. Which is where it gets blurry to me and we're back at " Just gotta stick with what's making you money".

For example, Q'on mentions ARS on his "I think they shave"-list. This forum's sponsor and flying in your sig - ARS! I'm sure you trust those guys 100% Shemp but Q'on and other people don't. Can shaving really be generalized when we're talking about the big companies that everyone knows pays?

the Shemp
10-17-2005, 04:52 AM
shaving accusations should be specific and carry some appropriate proof...
"i think they shave", isnt a wise comment in my opinion..

sleeves
10-17-2005, 05:16 AM
I agree with the thread, I've had the same opinion for years. In fact there's currently a very popular sponsor that I'm sure everyone promotes that I'm certain is shaving big time. My stats with them are so screwed that there is no other explanation. Interestingly I was doing really well and then when I upped the traffic my numbers turned to donkey shit. Keep in mind I was doing really well, under 1/100. But I was only sending 30 or so signups a month. I started investigating more closely and found tons of 404's and I also realized that their hit tracking is flawed depending on how you choose to send traffic. After trying to contact them numerous times I finally made my knowledge public and the tours were fixed within five minutes. But the hit tracking was never fixed. I believe I was punished for finding the loop holes and forcing them to get fixed. My stats became so erratic that there is no other explanation.

After building some rapport with one of the people over there I noticed my stats getting better. But they never really got great, I notice that I will start at 1/100 or better, get to 20 signups or so and then everything falls off to levels that are just simply unreal. I've noticed a major trend in their hit counting and crediting of signups. I've also noticed a lot of other people having the same speculations as me about these guys. I'd name them but I'm not interested in the repercussions.

As for the sponsors named in that thread, some of those guys are really just promoting their mailers. Their tours are for shit and most of the focus is on collecting emails, then your blasted with popups that you don't get credit for when you leave. You have to look at every aspect of the tour, focus of the tour, cross sells, billing companies, pps - revshare, third party payouts and so much more. Read the tos, a lot of guys only pay on cc signups. That leaves a big hole for checks and 900 billing. I've also heard of programs that apparently study surfing habits so they don't lose money on people who sign up and cancel after the trial. This would mean that we aren't being credited if they think the surfer falls into that category.

Obviously the only true way to know would be to have your own paysite and compare notes. I've yet to venture in this direction but the way things are going lately I think the time is nearing.

Mr. Blue
10-17-2005, 06:14 AM
shaving accusations should be specific and carry some appropriate proof...
"i think they shave", isnt a wise comment in my opinion..

I agree to a point with this statement. I know the sponsors are basically going to jump on the "Where's the proof?" type statement and they're right...there should be proof...too bad it's very hard to prove a sponsor is shaving.

I suppose for each sponsor you could whip out the credit card and do a signup or have friends do signups and see how many counts...when or how a sponsor kicks in the shave though could make all those trial signups a void experiment. Also the TOS of many sponsors prohibit that type of activity.

Without saying a sponsor does this or that...I can state an example from my own experience. I did the Shemp avs idea...I didn't do the greatest avs, I didn't pick the best niche, the tour was NOT great, and the content was stale, and I didn't really promote it that much. Looking at my stats I converted at 1:300...only using TGP traffic...and the conversion ratio has remained consistent.

So, for me I'm gearing and changing my focus. It's really hard to prove a company is shaving...so its better not to sweat it and hope a sponsor is honest and just build your own...whether it be large avs sites or even a paysite if you have enough money and knowledge to swing it. Since I use 90% bought content already I'm not tethered to any sponsor for free content.

the Shemp
10-17-2005, 07:27 AM
ive told webmasters for years to develop their own streams of income and not to rely only on the affiliate model.... unfortunately most new webmasters started as surfers and all they know is the TGP model and how to use sponsor galleries and sponsor content..

msacras
10-17-2005, 10:29 AM
Since, I first read this and that thread last night it has created a lot of questions. And with the thread last week about "blowout content" it makes it hard to trust anyone. However, at the same time I trust a lot of the people I talk to daily. But which companies do I trust. Which people can I trust. I know there's no simple answer so it's all kind of frustrating. And AVS sounds like a good alternative but wouldn't the company controling the avs be able to shave sales too?

Mr. Blue
10-17-2005, 10:34 AM
ive told webmasters for years to develop their own streams of income and not to rely only on the affiliate model.... unfortunately most new webmasters started as surfers and all they know is the TGP model and how to use sponsor galleries and sponsor content..

The last month I've been thinking more and more about what you said on this topic...especially after listening to the interview you gave to Ron...it got me looking at my stats very carefully and started making me wonder, lol.

The main thing I've been noticing...with your own stuff if you're not doing great with conversion ratios, you can do something about it...write a new tour, tweak a tour, tweak the gallery templates etc, and you don't have that side thought whenever your stats start sucking of "Is this a sponsor shave"...instead you just have you, yourself, and I to blame for poor ratios and you can do something about it.

ronaldo
10-17-2005, 11:14 AM
Two snippets from his post that stuck in my mind...

"most big sponsors have custom made software with shave features built in. if your traffic is profitable for THEM then you'll see great signups ratios & big checks. if it isn't, you won't... doesn't matter if you send 100 signups, they'll only report and pay on enough to insure they are profitable or at least break even."

"Executive Stats? i think its shaving feature is complex and is based on profitability. it works to insure the profitability of the program - point blank. come on, it's design was commissioned by Brad Shaw lol... what do you expect?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Note his tone? God FORBID the program paying him thousands of dollars each month is MAKING any money for themself. Don't mistake MY tone for that of someone who tolerates shaving either. But the outright disdain by an affiliate against a profitable sponsor they're promoting is bloody ridiculous.

Affiliates today are so fucking spoiled it's sickening. Free hosting, free content, gallery descriptions, and it goes ON and ON and ON. ALL of that costs the sponsor money. Money that the affiliate doesn't have to put out. Remember when people actually PAID to buy content, or hosting even? What if they started charging you for the priviledge of using their content. It IS their content remember. They PAID to have it produced. Affiliates talk nowadays like it's their RIGHT to have sponsor provided content.

What would happen if ALL sponsor programs out there went to a 50/50 or 60/40 revshare split. Affiliates would piss and moan so much it's laughable. That's how a sponsor can guarantee they're gonna make money. Revshare. Hell, even that doesn't guarantee it.

But affiliates want $35-$40 for a trial signup with console free tours, PLUS all of the extras above. Plus they want a guarantee that they're not being shaved. All the while, having descriptive links on their galleries along the lines of "$1.95 for only 3 days!!", or "FREE for 30 minutes!". How many affiliates focus on the price of the trial, instead of the quality of the content of the site they're selling? The mentality of a surfer going to buy porn is such that you can control it with your own sales text. If you're focusing on the price of the trial, the member will go in and see what he can and get the hell out. HOPEFULLY for the program, he'll see enough that he likes that he'll stick around. If you're focusing on the content in your pitch, it's much more likely the surfer will sign up for a longer term, sometimes even without trial. For an affiliate, which way is it easier to sell? Either way, so long as YOU get your $35 or higher PSU, who cares right?

If you're worried about being shaved, and that the company is raping you because that's the only way they can make money, switch to revshare. Or, will they still shave you on revshare, even though they're probably making money on you now? That kind of blows his theory away. Again, the easy answer to ensure not being shaved is switch to revshare. Or, will you STILL make more money on PSU? Hmm. That's a dilemma.

Why is it that EVERY affiliate on the face of the earth knows how well their traffic converts and is worth? And why do NONE of them have bad traffic? If they're smart enough to know how much their traffic is worth, they should realize that their traffic can very easily vary from sponsor to sponsor, from month to month. Some tours are better than others for example and maybe, just MAYBE, it's one or two sponsors making your traffic look better than it really is.

But of course, noone wants to hear that either.

One last snippet to note from his post..."anyhow, its getting tougher to make a dime these days in the adult internet game."

When I consider the exchange rate, I'm making SLIGHTLY less, with about the same effort than I was about 2 years ago. If the exchange rate was the same as it was 2 years ago, I'd be making WAY more money. Unfortunately I haven't had the time to expand what I do on my own, but have no doubt if I spent an extra hour every day-7 days a week folks-I'd be making more money that I was 2 or 3 years ago even WITH the exchange rate as it is now.

There's still lots of money to be made. Perhaps instead of whining about the money you THINK is being stolen from you, look at your own business model, and expand to the point where it won't matter if that's ACTUALLY the case. Or, better yet, open up an affiliate program. Offer up the content, the hosting, the PSU on free trials and get a taste for what it's like on the other side.

Compare your overhead from the time you were just a lowly affiliate to now that you're a program owner.

The grass isn't always greener.

Note-These are MY personal experiences and opinions not having anything to do with anyone I DO or HAVE worked with or for in the past...OR the future for that matter.

P.S. One thing I forgot to note about what affiliates want, or DEMAND. Every time a show comes around, they want free passes, free drinks, free everything...with little or no regard to the fact that they've ALREADY been paid by these companies for the sales they've generated. Again, it's supposedly their inherent right to all the extra freebies.

LFCII
10-17-2005, 11:35 AM
Dear Ron,

All of what you said is no excuse for stealing and that is what shaving is. If you cannot make money without stealing from someone, than you need to go to jail and let Bubba address your issues.

Regards,

Les

ronaldo
10-17-2005, 11:39 AM
Dear Ron,

All of what you said is no excuse for stealing and that is what shaving is. If you cannot make money without stealing from someone, than you need to go to jail and let Bubba address your issues.

Regards,

Les


Dear Les,


Don't mistake MY tone for that of someone who tolerates shaving either.

Regards,

Ron

Mr. Blue
10-17-2005, 12:48 PM
Ron I agree with you...sponsors shouldn't give out free content, shouldn't give out free hosting, shouldn't make FHG, banners, headers, graphics, gallery builders so some snot nosed nothing can come along and flood the market with free porn.

I use only bought content, I pay for my dedicated server, I build all my graphics from top to bottom, and hell I don't even like FHG all too much because each and everyday I get flooded with these worthless submits.

What sponsors should do...build a site that will retain, go to revshare, don't offer all the free junk. Show me a sponsor that does that and I know for fact that they'll have fewer affiliates, but the affiliates they do have will be as happy as a pig in shit with the conversion ratios they'll be getting.

The whole system is skewed now...there's a glutt of free porn on the net and it's basically the sponsors fault for supplying free content to anyone with an adult sounding domain name.

Shaving sucks, I understand your point though Ron, but ultimately it comes back to the sponsors coveting any affiliate that comes along and supplying them with all the tools to make half-assed attempts at being a porn webmaster.

Brav
10-17-2005, 12:56 PM
Shaving, man has that word gotten me in trouble before. I remember years back, on another board I had made a post explaining that I thought I was getting screwed by a certain sponsor or two by shaving. The only reason I had thought shaving was because I was using my own script to count hits sent to sponsor etc... Their stats NEVER matched mine.

The responses in that thread were mixed, alot of people posted that I was either stupid or crazy or something. I was a newbie at the time, doing this for maybe 6 months at the time.

Anyways, one of the sponsors contacted me after that post, they didn't have any defensive attittude or even try and black ball me in public being the newbie that I was. They posted in that thread explaining "Sorry you feel you are being scammed, you have mail." The mail they sent had asked if they could take a look at how I was promoting them, and if they could help me raise my ratios. Thumbs up to that sponsor, I mean even if all of that was some pre-planned PR bullshit, it was done with good business ethics in mind. The "other" sponsor made no response at all if I remember correctly, they aren't in business anymore. They actually went bankrupt owing me thousands....

Anyways, I understand sponsors need to profit. I also understand they have expenses. But in my humble, little guy opinion I would much rather they lower the payouts and keep the stats honest then shave what they need to make a profit.

Panky
10-17-2005, 12:56 PM
Ron I agree with you...sponsors shouldn't give out free content, shouldn't give out free hosting, shouldn't make FHG, banners, headers, graphics, gallery builders so some snot nosed nothing can come along and flood the market with free porn.

I use only bought content, I pay for my dedicated server, I build all my graphics from top to bottom, and hell I don't even like FHG all too much because each and everyday I get flooded with these worthless submits.

What sponsors should do...build a site that will retain, go to revshare, don't offer all the free junk. Show me a sponsor that does that and I know for fact that they'll have fewer affiliates, but the affiliates they do have will be as happy as a pig in shit with the conversion ratios they'll be getting.

The whole system is skewed now...there's a glutt of free porn on the net and it's basically the sponsors fault for supplying free content to anyone with an adult sounding domain name.

Shaving sucks, I understand your point though Ron, but ultimately it comes back to the sponsors coveting any affiliate that comes along and supplying them with all the tools to make half-assed attempts at being a porn webmaster.

http://www.icando4u.com/smile/2thumbs.gif

Mr. Blue
10-17-2005, 01:41 PM
The responses in that thread were mixed, alot of people posted that I was either stupid or crazy or something. I was a newbie at the time, doing this for maybe 6 months at the time.

That's something that's a little troubling about sponsors, shaving, etc. You had some form of proof and still you got ripped on the boards. Unfortunately, legit questions regarding stats/shaving are usually met with a ferocity from keyboard jockies that post on forums.

Also, I hate to say this, but adult boards are in many ways dominated and controlled by sponsors. Pointing out shaving, even with proof, becomes a really dangerous topic that's usually only broached by noobs and they're often dismissed...maybe rightfully so, but I'm sure established webmasters have a list of sponsors they suspect of shaving, however they don't want to take the heat for outting them.

Brav
10-17-2005, 01:45 PM
I still don't keep my mouth shut. If I think Im getting screwed over Ill speak my mind. Sometimes my mouth gets me into trouble, but Ive never been one that can just sit back and take shit up the ass so to speak...

LFCII
10-17-2005, 02:34 PM
Dear Ron,

I can relate with the exchange rate. I do a little Forex stuff and going back and forth between the amearicas can get tuff some days.

Bottom line is that shaving is stealing. There is no excuse for it period. No way to say you are doing it because of this or that and making it seem right. It is wrong and if someone does it and gets caught, they need to pay the piper. Actually, in the old days 15 pounds of lime would fixs someone who was stealing. :-} Les

ronaldo
10-17-2005, 03:01 PM
Dear Ron,

I can relate with the exchange rate. I do a little Forex stuff and going back and forth between the amearicas can get tuff some days.

Bottom line is that shaving is stealing. There is no excuse for it period. No way to say you are doing it because of this or that and making it seem right. It is wrong and if someone does it and gets caught, they need to pay the piper. Actually, in the old days 15 pounds of lime would fixs someone who was stealing. :-} Les
I agree with you.

However, my point was/is this.

As soon as an affiliate doesn't like his stats, the first response is that the sponsor is shaving.

I saw what was posted on the other board and I saw absolutely NOTHING that made me believe unequivocally he was being shaved. Shitty stats certainly. But no real proof.

According to his stats, anyone that he's making less than .02/unique in combination with a worse than 1:1500 ratio is shaving him. Where do those numbers come from? What formula was used?

Perhaps the traffic that he obviously knows personally doesn't LIKE the sites converting less than he likes? You can filter your traffic, but can't disclude personal preference from the equation.

This statement goes back to the OTHER thread in which I was sooo popular. HOW does he KNOW that his highest converting sponsor isn't taking 10% off the top too? He doesn't, but because he likes those numbers, there's NO question that they're not shaving? If the ratio triples on a good sponsor for one or two periods from 1:400 to 1:1200, is that sponsor all of a sudden shaving? Or ONLY if they fall below the magic 02/unique? Statistics have proven that statistics don't mean shit. Statistically speaking of course.

I've had questions about sponsors in the past, but instead of raking them over the coals on a messageboard with no proof, I looked at what "I" was doing with that sponsor. In some cases results improved. In others it didn't. If they didn't, I simply moved to another sponsor...without accusing anyone of stealing from me.

Show me hard proof of someone shaving like PIB and I'll be on the affiliate side every time. But I see no reason to take part in what ultimately is an exercise in futility.

ronaldo
10-17-2005, 03:08 PM
Btw. Here's a tip.

Instead of posting all of those fantastic 1:150 stats to the masses in the hopes of making a few dollars in referrals, maybe KEEP IT TO YOURSELF. At least don't bitch when everyone and their dog is promoting it and your ratios go to shit.

You won't see me posting stats, good or bad anywhere. It's my business, and between me and my sponsors. If I was sitting on a gold mine with a sponsor, instead of posting screenshots of my stats to look like a bigshot on GFY, I'd keep it to myself and keep the sponsor under the radar. And rake in the cash.

Actually, please don't heed these words. Post some more awesome stats so I can take advantage. Just don't ask me to reciprocate...in public anyways (I'll tell people I know when a good things going around). :afro:

Brav
10-17-2005, 03:18 PM
As soon as an affiliate doesn't like his stats, the first response is that the sponsor is shaving.


Yes, that does happen alot. Or they bash the sites they have submitted to for traffic.

The only time I ever made an arrogant accusation of being scammed in one way or another was when my stats of sent traffic didn't match their stats of received traffic. That made me wonder. And yes, I took into account what they were tracking, wether it be first, second or join page hits...

Brav
10-17-2005, 03:19 PM
Btw. Here's a tip.

Instead of posting all of those fantastic 1:150 stats to the masses in the hopes of making a few dollars in referrals, maybe KEEP IT TO YOURSELF. At least don't bitch when everyone and their dog is promoting it and your ratios go to shit.

You won't see me posting stats, good or bad anywhere. It's my business, and between me and my sponsors. If I was sitting on a gold mine with a sponsor, instead of posting screenshots of my stats to look like a bigshot on GFY, I'd keep it to myself and keep the sponsor under the radar. And rake in the cash.

Actually, please don't heed these words. Post some more awesome stats so I can take advantage. Just don't ask me to reciprocate...in public anyways (I'll tell people I know when a good things going around). :afro:

Amen...

the Shemp
10-17-2005, 03:40 PM
P.S. One thing I forgot to note about what affiliates want, or DEMAND. Every time a show comes around, they want free passes, free drinks, free everything...with little or no regard to the fact that they've ALREADY been paid by these companies for the sales they've generated. Again, it's supposedly their inherent right to all the extra freebies.

Ron, are you saying that these program owners aren't honest enough to budget for such expenditures and that it's easier and somewhat ethical to fund promotions by stealing from the affiliate webmasters.... ?

ronaldo
10-17-2005, 03:56 PM
Ron, are you saying that these program owners aren't honest enough to budget for such expenditures and that it's easier and somewhat ethical to fund promotions by stealing from the affiliate webmasters.... ?
Of course not man. Note my quote above. I don't in ANY way condone shaving. But PROVE it before you accuse someone please.

What I WAS saying is after the sponsor has paid for the content they're giving affiliates, the hosting, the designs, etc. etc. and THEN paid YOU the money you're owed for sending sales, THEN affiliates start bitching if everything isn't free for them when they attend webmaster conferences.

Perhaps I look at my relationship with my sponsors different than most. If that's true, it's a sad indication of the crop of affiliates out there.

I tend to *gasp* TRUST my sponsors until it's PROVEN to me that they're not trustworthy. If something isn't going my way, I'll look at what I'M doing first. Unfortunately, today even I use predominantly sponsor content because that's what necessary. (For anyone thinking of flaming, I've also got well over 2,000,000 images bought and paid for and just sitting around now). But hosting or anything else? Uh, no. I run a business and actually pay some money to make money.

And when "I" get together with MY sponsors, I'm usually the first one to pull out my wallet and buy THEM a drink. Because it's money they paid ME that probably paid for me to be there. I like to think of it as a partnership instead of a gimme gimme gimme relationship.

Like I said, maybe it's just me. I hope not though.

P.S. Give me a call when you have a few minutes. Number in my sig.

Mr. Blue
10-17-2005, 04:39 PM
Ron I agree with a lot of what you're saying and I think I view the topic of shaving a little more severely because I am paying for my own content, hosting, and doing all the grunt work and not relying on the sponsor heavily for any of those fringe benefit things that most affiliates crave.

I think shaving is around, I think its more widespread than people care to admit, and I'm pretty sure a lot of seasoned webmasters (not just noobs) have a good sense of what programs might be shaving.

Sponsors are running a business, if they can't do it honestly, they shouldn't do it at all...The only thing I really and honestly expect from a sponsor...A) A good tour B) A backend that retains C) No Shave D) They pay me on time. All the other junk from free content to free hosting and the drinks at a convention...keep it, I have my own money, I don't need to be anyone's bitch and if you convert for me I shouldn't need you to pay for anything :D

Shaving is more prevalent than most people think...it's really difficult to prove a sponsor is shaving, nearly impossible, so a lot of the times you have to go with your gut feeling on it. That post, whether the guy is talking out of his ass or not, might open up some eyes or at least get a productive discussion going on the topic.

Panky
10-17-2005, 08:56 PM
An affiliate can only dictate so far as to how a sponsor runs their business. There comes a point in time when a sponsor needs to stand on their own two feet and say, "This is what I'm offering. These are the tools we can provide. This is how we can work together." If an affiliate doesn't like it, so what? They can move on.

When a sponsor develops a business model where the affiliate is controlling the shots and the only way they see to cover the expense of these "demanding" affiliates is by biting the hands that feed them, they are destined to fail. It is not a business model designed for long term growth. This practice will come back and bite the sponsor in the ass.

If an affiliate continues with this "give everything to me for free and hold my hand" mentality, they are destined to fail and rightly so.

Unfortunately, greed fuels a lot of decisions that some sponsors and affiliates make.

Lunatic
10-18-2005, 01:55 AM
The affiliates are the program owners customers as well. The affiliates are putting money in the program owner's pockets by sending a site member that the program wouldn't have received without the affiliate. Otherwise, there is no point in having an affiliate program in the first place. The affiliate makes a commision, but there should be plenty of profit to more than offset the commision and whatever other overhead was used to help the affiliate make the sale.

LFCII
10-18-2005, 08:26 AM
I agree with you.

However, my point was/is this.

As soon as an affiliate doesn't like his stats, the first response is that the sponsor is shaving.

Dear Ron,

Not all affiliates will say the sponsor is shaving. Some will look at their own efforts first. However, without questions there is shaving/cheating going on to some % from certain affiliates and sponsors. Yeap... it is surley a two way street. This is the nature of any business in any industry. One just needs to decide if they want to do business within the %.



Show me hard proof of someone shaving like PIB and I'll be on the affiliate side every time. But I see no reason to take part in what ultimately is an exercise in futility.

Absolutely, If someone has real proof or at least some real evidence and feels the need to reveal it, than they should either do so or just move on.

Tchau,

Les :)

Vink
10-23-2005, 11:48 AM
The last month I've been thinking more and more about what you said on this topic...especially after listening to the interview you gave to Ron...it got me looking at my stats very carefully and started making me wonder, lol.

The main thing I've been noticing...with your own stuff if you're not doing great with conversion ratios, you can do something about it...write a new tour, tweak a tour, tweak the gallery templates etc, and you don't have that side thought whenever your stats start sucking of "Is this a sponsor shave"...instead you just have you, yourself, and I to blame for poor ratios and you can do something about it.
Mr. Blue where can I find this Shemp interview?

Mr. Blue
10-23-2005, 12:06 PM
Mr. Blue where can I find this Shemp interview?

Ron posted it a bit ago...here's the link:

http://www.theronstewartshow.com/archives.php

Vink
10-23-2005, 12:19 PM
Thanks Mr. Blue.

andrewst
10-23-2005, 10:08 PM
Was very interesting read.
I didnt think sponsor acepted webmasters from Thailand??????????
I remeber once thinking what can be wrong with there traffic when the websites are mostly hosted in the usa and they use the same methods to generate income as the rest of us.
Maybe they shave diferent countries harder?
As long as my income this week is bigger then last week I`m happy.
Can`t see the point of being vexed by something I can`t control.
Sticking with nats sponsors helps me sleep at night thou.
Just my 2c
Cheers

Mr. Blue
10-23-2005, 10:45 PM
Sticking with nats sponsors helps me sleep at night thou.
Just my 2c
Cheers

Have you noticed an improvement using only NATS sponsors?

andrewst
10-23-2005, 11:02 PM
Yes I am quite happy with Nats indeed.
The sats on on probations site are very very similar to mine.
His stats should be better because his site is pure ethnic (targetted).

Mr. Blue
10-23-2005, 11:07 PM
Yes I am quite happy with Nats indeed.
The sats on on probations site are very very similar to mine.
His stats should be better because his site is pure ethnic (targetted).

Nice :) Thanks for answering.